How Harris County’s Managed Assigned Counsel (MAC) Office Is Changing Indigent Defense in Texas
In this episode of Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense, we sit down with Natalie Ware, Chief of Misdemeanor and Training Director for the Harris County Office of Managed Assigned Counsel (MAC) to break down how Texas is transforming indigent defense at the misdemeanor level.
If you’re a Texas criminal defense attorney — or simply interested in how the criminal justice system works — this episode offers a rare inside look at:
What the Harris County Managed Assigned Counsel system actually does
How attorneys qualify to take appointed misdemeanor cases
Training requirements for MAC list attorneys
Pay structure and voucher oversight
Caseload standards in Harris County
Recidivism data and dismissal rates
The client-centered, holistic defense model
How social workers and immigration attorneys support appointed counsel
Why holistic criminal defense reduces jail time without increasing future crime
We also discuss how the MAC office provides interdisciplinary support — including social workers, immigration specialists, and resource attorneys — to ensure clients receive representation that addresses both legal and life circumstances.
For criminal defense lawyers across Texas, this episode is a must-listen discussion on the future of indigent defense reform and what other counties can learn from Harris County’s model.
If you practice criminal law, serve on appointment lists, or are interested in public defense reform, this conversation provides practical insight into how systems change happens.
Learn more about the Harris County MAC office at:
https://mac.harriscountytx.gov
Andrew Herreth 0:03
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Andrew and Andrew on Texas criminal defense. My name is Andrew Herreth, and as always, joining me now across the state, Mr. Andrew Decker,
Andrew Decker 0:16
you make it sound like I moved. You moved? Yeah, I came home, right? And that's what I tell everybody, he went home, yeah. But people, people still ask about you up here, usually not in good ways. No, it's not in good ways. It's like, what happened to that? Oh, sorry.
Andrew Herreth 0:34
What happened to Oh, yeah, no, no, I it's, it's nice. It's nice to be to be missed. I miss everybody too. Hopefully I'll get to see plenty of people at rusty. That registration. I just got an email on I think it's opening or open.
Andrew Decker 0:48
Currently, it's open. By the time this drops, the first price increase will have happened. I probably will not be at rusty.
Andrew Herreth 0:56
Whoa. Okay. Well, you'll be missed. That's a big deal for you.
Andrew Decker 1:01
It is, I have to, I have a college graduation and high school graduation, and then, and then I'm speaking at South Padre in July. So it may be a I'm I miss rusty, or at least I come by myself if I come. So it's to be determined.
Andrew Herreth 1:18
Sounds like, sounds like, maybe you need some support in your practice? No, I need some support in my personal life. Is what I maybe some support in your personal life? Well, we've got somebody today that's going to talk to us about the office that she leads, the support that she provides to attorneys that she works with, and I don't know if she can help you out, but she's certainly going to be helping me out. And that is Natalie ware, hey, Natalie, hey. How are you pretty good? How'd you like that segue?
Andrew Decker 1:51
Decker, it was better than most. I'd give you a B plus A minus, okay, which compared to the C compared to the c minus d you get on segways is really, really good. You know, it's
Andrew Herreth 2:03
much better than any grade I've ever gotten in school. So this is, this is great. Natalie is works for the Mac office, the Manage, assigned council office in Harris County. I don't want to butcher your your role. I know that Portia is the executive director. Portia Brown, former guest Brenda is the executive director. Natalie. Take it away. What? What? What is your role at the Mac let's just start there, and then we'll get into like, an introduction of how you became an attorney. Sure.
Natalie Ware 2:40
So my official title is the chief of misdemeanor and training director at the Harris County Office of managed assigned counsel. So I oversee a team of what we call resource attorneys, which I'm sure we'll be talking a little bit more about. So a team of four licensed criminal defense attorneys, and I also am in charge of training all of the attorneys who are on the list, as well as oversight. It's very general.
Andrew Decker 3:06
That's so how, let's ask a simple question, based on what you said, how many attorneys are on quote the list?
Natalie Ware 3:12
You know, I actually when you when I said that, I was like, I'm gonna get that question. And since attorneys like Mr. Herreth, who literally just joined today or yesterday, officially, but I created his profile today. We were at around 230 and we just added 14 new attorneys, so I think we'll be around the 250 a little under 250 as of today,
Andrew Decker 3:37
just so basically that would be the list of persons taking appointed cases on misdemeanors in Harris County?
Natalie Ware 3:46
Yes, the attorneys who are eligible to take misdemeanors in Harris County, people take breaks and things. So you know, not all 250 are declaring availability and doing intake at once, but they are all eligible to take misdemeanors in Harris County.
Andrew Decker 4:02
That's right, all right, okay. Just want to make sure I understood the question. Continue.
Andrew Herreth 4:06
So Natalie, you're, you know, you've been practicing law in Harris County for some time. How, like, why did you decide to become a lawyer, to become a criminal defense attorney, etc?
Natalie Ware 4:18
Yeah, I took, you know, my dad was a lawyer in Houston. He was in civil litigation my whole life, and so I always just kind of was drawn to law. I guess he always told me, growing up, I would be a prosecutor. He thought for sure. I don't know why he thought that, but that was definitely what he said. I am the farthest thing from a prosecutor you can, literally get. So he was very wrong about that, but right in the overall career path, I started in practice. I was, I went to a m for undergrad, and I got, I wanted out of Texas for the summer, desperately, and so I went to, this is really going to age myself. But I went to Barnes and Noble and got like the US News and weeklies. One. 100 best internship book, and fell across the Georgetown University Law Center's Prettyman fellowship. They they take criminal investigators college students and let them do their criminal investigations for them. And so I was trained at Georgetown Law on how to be a criminal investigator, and spend an entire summer in DC, doing that, and I just kind of got the bug, to be honest. After that, I went I when I graduated, I moved to DC, and I did criminal investigations for four years in DC, mostly in southeast DC, for an attorney by the name of Bernie Grimm up there. And then decided, okay, yeah, this is what I want to do. I think I'll, you know, finally go to law school. And so I have literally been criminal defense ever since I interned at PDS in DC, and then I went to Bronx defenders, which are, you know, two of the like, founding holistic defense offices in the country. So I was trained originally to be a client centered, holistic defense attorney, I'd say. And then went to Miami. Dade was a public defender for a while there, and then went, came home to, similar to you, came home to Houston, worked at Texas Defender Service on some death work cases, and then wound up at the PDO, and then made the move over to the Mac.
Andrew Herreth 6:21
That's a, that is a that's a lot of, like, really, like, hard defense work too.
Natalie Ware 6:29
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I consider myself a career public defender. This is what I've always wanted to do. Well, not always, but, you know, since I got bit by the bug, and I've never, never veered from it. And I think even if I'm, you know, even now, I'm not technically a public defender, but I'm in such a public defense adjacent field I essentially, I consider myself one.
Andrew Herreth 6:49
So so Harris County has has a public defender's office now, and we also have manage assigned counsel is there. So if, if somebody is going to take appointments in Harris County and is not employed by the public defender's office, they have to be a member of the Manage assigned Council.
Natalie Ware 7:13
Correct for misdemeanors, yes, or misdemeanors, felonies, felony courts in Harris County operate under their own system. But for misdemeanors, that is correct, yes, except for I will give this caveat, if you are taking felony appointments and you want to take your misdemeanor client, your an existing felony clients misdemeanor, we will allow it because you're already working with that client. So if client states that that is what they want, we will give them the misdemeanor case for continuity of representation. It doesn't happen that often, but we, we will do it when asked by client, right?
Andrew Herreth 7:51
So, when did, like, when? When did the Mac come into existence? When did that process start?
Natalie Ware 8:00
You know, I I remember Genesis. Draper is a dear friend of mine. And I remember when she got the bench and she started talking about the idea of managed to sign Council offices and things that was really one of her, you know, I think it was the brainchild of her. Maybe I'm just misguided in that. But so when she took when, you know, we had that big blue wave onto the bench, I feel like we really started hearing the rumblings of it, and they started looking into it. We were officially created in 2020 when they appointed Kenneth Hardin as the executive director. And that's when things really got rolling. We were a very, we're still a very small office, but we were even smaller back then,
Andrew Herreth 8:45
and and so year by is it one of those deals like year by year, the the office just grows?
Natalie Ware 8:52
Yeah, continuously. You know, we haven't, we haven't added many, like actual so the way it works is the attorneys who are on our list are not housed with us, right? So you guys are all private practitioners who are just contract employees with the with the county, but our actual staff in office, it has grown a bit, but honestly, not much. There's only, I think there's 21 of us now, and that's it. Who are helping to support these 250 attorney around 250 attorneys. There's 21 of us actually staffing the office to keep things going. But when we started the list, I think we were at like 86 attorneys or something. It was some, I would have to pull the number, but it was a, it was a low number. We've almost more than tripled the list, I think, now,
Andrew Herreth 9:39
and the I and the So, so the Mac now has about 250 attorneys that you're actively assigning. You're in charge of of four resource attorneys. What like? What is their role? What are what are they doing? Within the office, yeah.
Natalie Ware 10:02
So, um, I actually, when I came to the office, I was a resource attorney. So I actually, I'm very familiar with this. You know, the the role has evolved a lot, but the idea behind the resource attorneys is that they are genuinely there to support the list attorneys, the Mac list attorneys accepting appointments in any ways they can so not only are they troubleshooting appointment issues, scheduling issues with attorneys like people running late, or they have a sick kid and they can't be on calendar that day, so now we have to fill their space with someone else, or a coordinator is looking for someone, or the judge is asking for research in case law and the RA happens to be sitting in the courtroom, which they do every day. They go to court every day almost they'll start doing research and try to get it up to our Mac attorney. They literally, when I say in the interviews to attorneys, they literally try to do anything and everything to support attorneys, to make their client attorney relationship and the whole process easier. They're kind of a catch all. They really, they really are like, they literally will do anything they can sit second on trials. They do that often. They help work up motions hearings. They staff cases with people. I they're always on their phones with attorneys. Like I hear them constantly talking through issues. They all we also, one of the things we do at the Mac is we kind of do, let's see, like management a little bit between, you know, if a judge and an attorney are having an issue, sometimes it's helpful. It's like mediation to have a third set of eyes come in and kind of be like, Okay, well, that's interesting, because the attorney told me this judge, and then the judge is like, Oh no, that's not what I was seeing or whatever. And then we can kind of smooth the water. Sometimes. Same with clients. We often go, if client or attorney ask us, we can go in and, you know, try to help mediate or explain something to the client, or whatever it is that they need.
Andrew Herreth 12:00
I love that the Decker pre show asked a really good question. So you're, you're also in charge, in charge of ongoing training, or attorney training, right? And we just, you just completed a big training you want to tell talk to us about, about what that is, and like, what the ongoing training is, just for attorneys that are on the Mac, that are a part of the Mac, right, what they can
Andrew Decker 12:30
let's start with, let's start with, what training does it take to get on the Mac list?
Natalie Ware 12:35
I just knew I was actually going to start there, because I was thinking that makes more sense. Anyways, good. Great question. So we have a minimum requirements. They're actually, they're statutorily laid out. I have it. I don't have it in my head, this statute, but you know, you have to have at least a year of criminal law experience, right? When the application process, we have a very detailed application, Andrew, can, you know, attest to that where we asked about trial experience, we asked about motions practice, we asked about hearings, basically any information we can gather on your criminal legal practice, if you meet the minimum qualifications. We also have questions on our application that attorneys fill out that we we ask for a thoughtful, thorough answer on so we actually make them do some, you know, work on that. And then attorneys are invited for interviews, if, if they are chosen to, they sit through a 45 minute to an hour interview with about three people on someone from our holistic team, a resource attorney and myself. And then, if they are interviewed and they are chosen, then they must attend a four day in person orientation. It is a half day orientation each day so that attorneys can obviously go to court and, you know, take care of their clients and their cases, which is always our top priority at Mac, but it is four days. It's about four to five hours each day, and it is in person. It's an overview of everything from how to be a client centered attorney, how to be a client centered holistic attorney, how to use and utilize our holistic services that are available in the office. We do reviews of sentencing of PTI. They learn how to voucher, basically, anything and everything we think should be at the forefront of their minds when beginning their Mac journey. We really try to cover it in orientation.
Andrew Herreth 14:31
Yeah, it was, it was all encompassing.
Natalie Ware 14:36
I'm glad to hear that. Okay.
Andrew Decker 14:38
I mean, that makes, that makes sense. You know, I'm looking at, I'm thinking about my friend, Mr. Herreth. What 15 years of practice we've been doing a podcast statewide for for six Sure? Why? Why? Why would somebody who, why make Mr. Herreth spend half a day for four days? So I'm thinking. In 15 to 16 hours learning how to how to do this, one would assume that he probably does that if he's a if he's a member of tcdla, and he's been active in the bar and he's been trying
Natalie Ware 15:11
cases, yeah, I think that's a great question. I what, what I have found in this job is that even those of us who, including myself, who were trained to be holistic, client centered attorneys, which I will say, I don't think, has always been the way that we have been trained as attorneys, especially criminal defense attorneys, and especially, not especially, but those of us who come from prosecutor's office is, you know, we initially don't even have clients. So if you're talking straight over from prosecution to defense, that's a learning curve, too. But the more it's it's like Andrew was saying in the beginning of you know, when we were chatting before this podcast, is that you get, you need a break, sometimes you get a little jaded. And this teaches, I think, attorneys a way to dig deeper and to tap some of those things that gives you a real human experience with your client, which I think after a lot of practice, and if you aren't necessarily shown and walked through how to do that, I think you lose I think some attorneys can lose that, not all, of course, not to make generalities, But you know, it's we, this is really hard work. It's just really hard, and it's exhausting. And so we aren't always the most client centered people or the most you know, looking for those holistic resources and how to combine those, and combining those is really hard to do, but it really, truly, I believe, is what's best for your client. So for people like Mister Herreth, it might be more of a refresher. For some people, you know, we have some people who are joining our list very young into their law career, and to them, I think it's wonderful, because they're learning how to practice in this way, and they're learning these, these, like ethics and these, these stylistic practices that I think will better serve them for the long run, and will most certainly, in my belief, better serve their clients. It just becomes a day to day practice for those, those attorneys.
Andrew Herreth 17:16
Yeah, it wasn't, I mean, there, there were certain some, some aspects that that was like a refresher. I learned a lot, though, even like, you know, negotiation, I'm like, Okay, I've been negotiating for, you know, since 2008
Andrew Decker 17:32
senior negotiation
Andrew Herreth 17:34
leaves a lot to be desired. But I tell you what, I did not know about all of the pretrial diversion programs that are specific. To Harris County. So I did learn a lot there, and I have never had access to a social worker who can help with getting a client and ident an ID, who can help with completing some of these classes, who can help with housing issues, who and these are all issues that you know, Decker and I face on a case by case basis, constantly, you know, up in North Texas, so, so, and that was learning how, how in when I should, like, lean on those resources with it within the Mac office, was it like, it really was very inspiring, like, I am, I am not, I mean, fired up, I guess, like, I'm inspired to, like, get in and, like, actually start working on misdemeanors, which usually, you know, we talk, right? Who cares? The misdemeanor, you know, like, boy, right? But, but no. I mean, this is like this. I am just very excited to see the changes in my practice, because
Natalie Ware 18:50
I like to think it's pretty it's still pretty new in Texas what we're doing. I mean, I know there's other Mac offices and things, and there's, you know, holistic services and some PDO offices and things, but it really is still super new down here. And unless you were practicing up north or something, it really it's not a natural thing to think, Oh, let me see if I can get a social worker to do this thing that I usually do and have been doing for 13 years for my clients, right? Like you just keep doing it yourself, but that's exhausting, and you might not be doing it perfectly or the best way, or, you know, like we were, like on the fly as lawyers trying to figure out how to get benefits turned back on. And that's a lot of resources and energy that could go elsewhere to defending the case while someone else handles that.
Andrew Herreth 19:40
One thing that I have routinely been outsourcing in my career is immigration memos, getting an immigration opinion. Decker and I have interviewed one of the, I guess, the pioneers of my Padilla, on the show before I've used that service. It is. It has really helped me out, and I believe it's still available to a lot of defenders, although I know that there has been changes we have there. There's an immigration lawyer that's in, that's within the Harris County Mac, whose job is to evaluate those cases and kind of help you and negotiating a final settlement or, you know, a plea agreement, right?
Natalie Ware 20:24
She's wonderful. She'll even look at your your plea paperwork. She oftentimes collaborates with us as resource attorneys. I mean, she's an attorney, obviously, but she's not as first in criminal law, and so sometimes our teams work together on plea paperwork and like, what we should be asking for, or what word we should be using that's less occlusive, or whatever it may be, but it's she. She also the difference. My Padilla is wonderful. It has served so many people in this state. It is. It's so amazing. But one of the wonderful things Julie posh is her name, our attorney at the Mac and she's so great. One of the wonderful things she can do is she goes to visit clients in jail. I mean, you know, a lot of immigration clients are in custody in my Padilla. I'm sure they wish they could go see everyone. I know they wish they could, but that is something Julie is getting to do, and she's getting that relationship, and also that other connection with the clients.
Andrew Herreth 21:16
So yeah, and that, you know. And that's great, because I'm not being relied upon, right, for some, like, very specific information that, you know, an immigration attorney would need to make a to make a determination. And so that's that takes a lot of pressure off of me, to like, you know, not have to, like, you know, okay, well, is this person naturalized, or are they just here on a visa, or, you know, whatever the case may be. And sometimes the clients don't, don't really fully understand. So, yeah, so I'm really excited about, about, just like, all of this. So the the leadership structure of the Mac, since you're you're the chief of misdemeanor, the Mac doesn't do anything with a felony courts, yet, correct, right?
Natalie Ware 22:15
And that's what's kind of why, honest to honestly, to me that's one of the wildest things. Is that, I know we talked about this in orientation, but I think the other Andrew would probably like be amazed by this. You know, you can get appointed a murder, and you don't get a social worker, you don't get an like, you would have to file an eight motion for a social worker, and then you would have to go find a social worker who works in the criminal defense space, which is not super common, right on, like regular cases, death work, yes, but on the other cases, it's a it's not easy to we have tried. I've had a friend try in Houston, and she struggled. And you also would have to file an eight motion for immigration and all of these other things. But if your client happens to pick up a little terroristic threat along with that murder, guess what? You get all of that handed to you if you want it and if client wants it through the Mac. So we oftentimes have attorneys, felony attorneys, who join our Mac, our list solely to take their existing clients, misdemeanors because they want those services on the mitigation services, all of it. They get mitigation reports, whatever they need. They get on the more serious crimes, even though, you know they're technically accessing it through the the low level misdemeanor. Yeah, that doesn't
Andrew Herreth 23:35
that doesn't make much sense to me. Decker, how many times you filed a motion for funds for a social worker.
Andrew Decker 23:42
I don't know that I have for a social worker, but I've obviously referred people to various agencies and groups. One of the things that I'm like, I say, great at but I'm good at it, sitting down with a client and going, I call it my my chocolate cake story. Talk about, look, I'm not here judging your addiction. I'm here saying you need some help, right? No one's going to get on to me for eating chocolate cake. Yeah, I can have it in my car. I can, if it's in my house, it calls me, but you need to go to AA na to MHMR, you need to go get some help. And here's the resource, here's the number, here's the place. So, I mean, I kind of, I kind of do that naturally.
Andrew Herreth 24:41
Yeah, you fill that, you fill that gap just with the with the contacts that you have personally,
Andrew Decker 24:47
right, right? It's maybe a leftover from my previous career, but,
Andrew Herreth 24:52
but you also are pretty involved in the community. So you, you have, you just generate this, this knowledge, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the same like, I think any defender in their local neighborhood is going to know, you know where, where the closest homeless shelter is, or something like that, but they may not know how to get that person like a bed in that shelter, or they may not know, you know what transportation issues or
Andrew Decker 25:26
Exactly, yeah,
Andrew Herreth 25:28
and so in listening to these to the social worker team talk, I was, I was blown away at just like the community contacts that they have and that they like continuously go out and try to farm. That, to me, was pretty, was really impressive.
Natalie Ware 25:45
Yeah, we have, we have a person in our office. Her her job is, she's a Community Engagement Specialist, and she her one of the main parts of her job is to go into the community and build relationships that will better serve our clients and community. And so they're constantly looking for new avenues for our clients and new services for our clients. Because it's true. You know, there's not always a bad where you call but also, I will say our social workers have built such great relationships that, you know, they they have favors, they can call them and things which they are not afraid to use. So it just benefits our client, our clients and our attorneys, clients so incredibly much that we have, and it just gives back the attorney so many hours of their time to focus on the actual case at hand. Yeah, which I think is just incredible, because otherwise you it's wonderful you do all that, Andrew, but that also takes, it takes time for you. And so, yeah, in effort. And you know, they, technically, you could, you know, put else, not elsewhere, but elsewhere towards the case or legal research, or whatever it may be, I don't know,
Andrew Decker 26:55
but so I'm looking at, right? So, yes, I think, I think social workers, I think investigators, there are some things like that that are more necessary than we like to admit. And currently, you know some of those, you really almost have to have a capital murder case to automatically get right an investigator, mitigation specialist. Now, do we need it on every case? No, but, but so I've been flipping through your website right, because it's how you learn things. So average days to this position, basically 140 just under 40 days, which is probably pretty common on a misdemeanor. Some of the rural counties now have gotten slower because they just can't manage the dockets. Yeah, right. Average cases disposed per attorney, 82 but that's is that in the lifetime of the attorney, or is that per year? Or, do you know?
Natalie Ware 28:06
I'm not sure. I would have to look at the report you're looking at. I don't have up our website right this second, but I would say it would be per year is my guess, because 82 is, well, I guess, if they're taking six months, yeah, I would say per year, is my guess, but I'm, I'm not sure on that, so don't, you know, hold me to it.
Andrew Decker 28:25
Okay, so I'm not gonna hold to you. I mean, you can, as I tell my clients, you can always say, I don't know. I don't know.
Natalie Ware 28:32
Yes, I said too. But
Andrew Decker 28:35
here's, here's, Ladies Gentlemen, this is, these are pretty impressive. Stats, trial results, 54% now it's 27 and 23 so 50 cases went to trial, it looks like in this analysis, but 57 of them non convictions. That means that was a not guilty. And I think the Mac and he's put not guilty,
Andrew Herreth 29:01
yeah, not guilty, or dismissed, or dismissed.
Natalie Ware 29:04
Well, we have, I'm looking at it now, oh yeah, it says
Andrew Decker 29:08
trial results. I mean, on the other side, there's the what happens, and the number that are dismissed
Natalie Ware 29:14
is, yeah, we have a great dismissal rate, and it has, it's, it's constantly, I don't want to jinx this, but it's just it's continuously improved every year since I've been here and I've been in the office almost the full five years. So right
Andrew Decker 29:33
now, cases disposed per rolling year 15, you know, on the dismissed. And my guess is because I don't see I be like, without looking at it very, very, I'm trying to look at very right that may include deferred, because I don't necessarily see that as a significant number. And all miscommunities, they tend to be significant. But it's almost, it's almost. Were 15,000 cases in the rolling year, a lot of cases.
Natalie Ware 30:05
So we appoint, I think last year we I think the amount of appointments made to cases, it's somewhere in like the 33,000 range, if I remember. So, I mean, there are just so many cases filed in Harris County in a year, so that that makes numerically, it makes sense to me, and
Andrew Decker 30:25
so it does make it 82 cases per attorney per year.
Natalie Ware 30:29
Yeah, I mean, just Yes, I would think so,
Andrew Decker 30:33
yeah, no, just I can do math. Yeah.
Natalie Ware 30:36
We have, we have, we have active caseload standards as well that our attorneys that we over, it's part of our oversight operation of attorneys, and so they're not they're not supposed to be taking over 224, in a year, and we rarely, maybe one or two attorneys have topped that who, and it's just because we can't Turn Down cases, but we have gotten caseload numbers significantly decreased as well since starting the Mac by growing the list, but then and having more attorney, more qualified attorneys available as well.
Andrew Decker 31:12
Okay, so, so now I'm going to play something with it, right? Yeah, someone has played. Someone has to play cross examination. Man decides counsel, what? I'm an attorney. What do I get paid?
Natalie Ware 31:29
Yeah, sure, so
Andrew Decker 31:32
the pay hasn't been on it long enough to know the answer.
Natalie Ware 31:35
So the pay has took over
Andrew Herreth 31:36
it during the orientation.
Natalie Ware 31:38
We did, we went over it all. Of course, the pay has also gotten far better for attorneys, and that the attorneys back, I don't want to say back in the day, because it wasn't that long ago, prior to the five years when Mike started, had not gotten a pay increase in quite some time. So when the judges decided to create the Mac, they also voted in a new pay schedule, and what that looks like for us is our attorneys sign up for days. We call them intake days, and that means they're days. They're taking new cases. On those days we pay our attorneys, we're just going to go off Spanish speaking attorneys get a little bump, because we always need Spanish
Andrew Decker 32:17
speaking attorneys, right same, I think, in almost any so they
Natalie Ware 32:21
have a little higher rate, but we'll just go off the normal rates, and that is $250 just for making yourself available that day. That means that you're in the Harris County Courthouse waiting for appointments on that day. If you get no cases, you still get paid that $250 and that's because you could have been at your office in taking clients, you could have been working, being paid. Otherwise, if you get cases, if you get two or more cause numbers, so actual cases, not clients, cases, it's $100 per case past that two mark. So if you get three cases, 304 cases, 405 you know, obviously you can do the math. So that is how our intake scheduling works. Pay works. Otherwise, it's $100 an hour for out of court, and it's 140 I think, for anything with testimony. So trial, hearings, things like that, actual sworn testimony being given. So the pay is, it's, I think it's pretty good. I don't feel like we get complaints on pay. We also really advocate for our attorneys. You know, our stance is, if you are working on a case that the Mac is signed, then you should be you should bill for that work, because a public defender who is working is they're getting paid for their time. And so we're really trying to get the equity between basically public defenders and Mac attorneys, you know, as close as possible. So we really encourage them to track their time accurately, and we will obviously pay pay for their time as they should be compensated. Gone are the days of voucher cutting in Harris County.
Andrew Herreth 34:01
Yeah, yeah, that's that's a big problem, like in any county, is having your is having your voucher.
Andrew Decker 34:09
But anyhow, introduced, how many times have you had a Have you seriously had a voucher reduced?
Andrew Herreth 34:16
I so I had a pretty big CSA in Parker County that was like, I mean, it was five digits of of a bill, and the judge just called me was like, just want to verify that this is, these are actually the hours, but I've, I've not had a voucher cut. Tarrant County, they were scrutinized. Like, especially, we had to submit paper ones, like, right then and there, when the case was disposed of, like, the judge will be like, What? No, work these numbers out a little bit better, and I can talk to you off the podcast about that.
Andrew Decker 34:54
Yeah, so, so, I mean, I don't know that I've had, I've had one or two where a judge asked question, but. Don't think I've had anything more than maybe $200 total taken off of all my bills total, like across all level.
Natalie Ware 35:07
I don't think, I think, if you talk to more Harris County, I think it was a more prevalent issue here. From my understanding in the past,
Andrew Herreth 35:14
I know that a number of colleagues there, yeah, and I've That's my understanding too. Is it
Andrew Decker 35:21
was a concern. Yeah, I've heard it. I've heard it happens. It may depend on the, on the on the attorney. I mean, yeah, there was a rash of it for a while of cutting bill which,
Andrew Herreth 35:35
which also isn't, right, you know, if it is, if it is dependent on, on the attorney. Like, yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't make much sense to me, unless the attorney is, you know, baby, putting, putting stuff in, yeah, that that they just weren't working. That's not obviously right.
Natalie Ware 35:52
We, the Mac is in charge of vouchers in Harris County. Now they've delegated that power over to us, so we are the ones who are, you know, approving, I say we Porsche signs the final voucher. Obviously, that's all her, but there we have a team, a voucher team, and they, there are so many checks and balances on vouchers, which is good, because there should be. And, you know, they will inquire if something looks out of the norm, and check in with the attorneys and things. But there's not just the, you know, random. I think a misdemeanor shouldn't take this long anymore, or whatever it may have been, from what I heard. Yeah. Cool.
Andrew Herreth 36:33
Yeah. So the one of the numbers, too, I kind of wanted to highlight, was the recidivism. Who I think, oh, man, I don't know. I don't remember who spoke. It was a gallon that talked about, yeah, how the recidivism, recidivism numbers since the Mac has been in formation were just crazy in Harris County, or, I mean, like the lack of recidivism, I should say people who have their cases resolved with the help of the social worker and just the rest of the team at the Mac are not reoffending.
Natalie Ware 37:06
It appears it has definitely helped the situation. And overall, like the studies have shown that holistic having holistic defense models, they not only reduce like custodial sentence by quite a bit. I think it's like 15% 16% and it also usually. The studies have found that it's reduced the sentence length by something like 25% but also it's done both of those without increasing future crime from what they've found.
Andrew Herreth 37:36
Like you mentioned, a holistic defense model. Can you just explain briefly what that means.
Natalie Ware 37:43
Yeah, so the idea, the holistic defense model, is basically based on the idea that for attorneys to be truly effective advocate advocates for their clients, that defenders need to really adopt and buy into this broader understanding of the scope of their work, into both, not only the immediate case, obviously, but also all of those things that come with it, and the collateral, the collateral, legal consequences of their involvement in the criminal legal system, like loss of employment, housing, custody of children, immigration status, all those things, but also what got them there, or possibly got them there, or played a role in getting them there. So their life circumstances, both now and in the past and possibly in the future, in those, those issues in life that they have faced that have sometimes, oftentimes played a role in getting clients into the criminal legal system in the first place, like drug, drug addiction, mental illness, you know, housing, family, all of it. It all plays in so the belief of a holistic defender is that they are trying to essentially address the person as a whole, when that client is ready to do so. So that's where the client centered model and the the holistic model kind of mesh, which is why we call ourselves a client centered holistic Defense Office, because we really believe in both of those interceding for the best of the client.
Andrew Herreth 39:13
Yeah, and so, I guess that's that's where the the idea of, like bringing in an immigration attorney, bringing in a social worker, the social worker team, and expanding those services really makes an impact on on indigent defense and defendants clients in Harris County, absolutely.
Natalie Ware 39:37
I mean, I feel like I, you know, I've been in in this office for five years, and I do, I truly do believe I have seen a difference in practice in Harris County, in the misdemeanor courts of attorneys like but also in Judges like you. I can't tell you the amount of times that I have gone in and someone's getting a new client. It. And the judge is like, well, if I could just know that they had something when I maybe I'd give them that PR blah, blah, blah. And the times that I've seen attorneys be like, Well, I've already called a max social worker. I'm going to walk them over to the office after this. And the judge is like, oh, okay, there's going to be a max social worker on it. Yes, Judge, okay, great. We'll go ahead and do the PR bond like they have built this the it almost feels like we've gotten, we have, we've gotten a great amount, I feel of county buy in from a lot of stakeholders in the system, who really, I think, believe that it's working and that they are seeing change and slow change, but it's change.
Andrew Decker 40:40
Yeah, I like the fact. I like the fact that it's well, slowly getting better. And again, I think a lot of it is those pieces that help people well. So to take a step back, if you look at systems theories, if you look at family systems theories, often what is called the child of focus is the child that pings right. They're the flashing red light. They're the kid that gets in trouble. They're the kids something going on, but really what they are is the family relief valve. Right, right. There's something in the family no one else wants to talk about but this kid, and the kid could be an adult, but they go, Well, they're the black sheep of the family. No, they're the one that is somehow releasing that, that energy in non productive ways, right? But it's the energy that everyone carries, right? Right? So when you, when you address the system, a few things happen. One is that this child will now try to move, and the system theory says that the rest of the system will shift to pull that child or that the actor that's trying to change back in the line, right? If you do that, if you stop drinking, you're not welcome here, right? Whoa, really. Now a healthy person goes, That's not the way that should work, but, but a system, a system will work that way, right? Right? Yes, that's so interesting. So the that to have a social worker be able to address the system, to address the underlying issue, and then help that person kind of stop the ping, which, which can be something very simple, marijuana, Alcohol, you know, we're not,
Natalie Ware 42:42
and these are the things that, as attorneys, we learn. So we do learn about through practice, because we see them. We see them, reoccur, reoccur, reoccur, and in so many clients and things. But I think what's so cool about what we're doing at the Mac is like, there are social workers for a reason. There's a reason that they must go to school. They learn certain things. They are like communication experts, in my mind, the way I see them communicate with clients that attorneys just can't land, myself included, like they land the plane so many times for attorneys where I'm like, Oh, wow, I know the attorney was giving a very good effort in getting that done, and the communication just was off. And you know, we're utilizing each team's back to the holistic model each team's skill set that they are very skilled in. It's an interdisciplinary team model, and everyone is allowing those who do it best to do what they do best, and respecting that decision and that guidance and that advice amongst this whole holistic defense team. So you know, when the attorney speaks, we listen legally and we offer insight and things, but we also respect that they may be the lead practitioner in that. Same goes with the immigration, the social worker, all these things, but they're all working towards that common goal of the client, and it's just, it's really cool to watch it play out. It's really, it's just neat to see how it all works together, like that.
Andrew Decker 44:09
Yeah, I like it. I like it. It
Natalie Ware 44:11
makes so much sense, but we just haven't been doing it. It's just still new. So Well, we haven't
Andrew Herreth 44:16
been doing it because it just makes too much sense, right?
Natalie Ware 44:19
That's that's often the problem, yes, all right, cool. Well, I'm excited. I love it. I love it.
Andrew Decker 44:28
I mean, obviously any the human condition says we fear change, and I know that my colleagues in Tarrant County are terrified that we might do something different. But right now, right now, I will be honest, the Tarrant County criminal defense bar is robust. And so you know, it's not like we need it for for robustness, but when you start asking questions. Right? Would we be benefit from social workers, from investigators, from, you know, I mean, there's a joke that I'm because I'm one of those people that gets called and said, Hey, there's going to be a hearing, Decker, we need you to sit in and just be ready to answer questions. And so I end up sitting in court, kind of like, what you're talking about. Your your councils that sit there and go, they can't do that, don't let them do that, right? The case law says this, right, but I'm not getting paid for that. Where your people, that's their job, that's their job. So, you know, so that becomes
Andrew Herreth 45:36
a and the biggest, you know, the biggest determining factor is like, do the, do the clients need it, you know? And I and, and I think that's, you know, that's a, that's a big yes, like a big screaming Yes. So, but
Natalie Ware 45:54
asked of our attorneys, I think, I think they were so hesitant. I do. There were so many, so hesitant, and I would not all have bought in, and that's okay, you know, we're not a perfect office or anything. But I think if you asked most of them, did you prefer it pre Mac or post Mac? I think you would hear a lot of post Mac, a lot more than you would, you would probably expect, I hope,
Andrew Decker 46:20
yeah, yeah. Well, obviously, I'm friends with your executive director, so, so I'm at least for her. Yes, she's
Natalie Ware 46:27
so she's so wonderful. Portia Brown and I both. I met her, we trained at Gideons promise together, we did, like their three year training program together, and she is just, she's a dear friend of mine, but also has always been just a great colleague and warrior in the fight of the criminal. So well, we
Andrew Herreth 46:46
knew she was going places for sure, and just to see her still out there, like grinding he's killing it, yeah? Is just, is really, really heartening and inspiring.
Natalie Ware 46:57
Yeah, yeah, we're lucky to have her, yeah?
Andrew Decker 47:01
Well, I think that kind of brings us to a good, a good stopping point. And Natalie Andrew Herreth forgot to tell you well ahead of time, so we told you moments before the podcast. And while you've been while you've been focusing on answering our questions, you've had to think about three other questions are often considered often, these are the hardest questions people ask, and the first one is, what's your favorite band or musical artist or who you listening to right now?
Natalie Ware 47:29
I mean, right now, I think is, isn't everyone listening to bad bunny right now?
Andrew Decker 47:34
Yes, if you're not, if you're
Natalie Ware 47:39
not, you've just given but like, I'm totally feeling them now. So that one was an easy one.
Andrew Decker 47:45
If you're not listening to bad bunny right now, you should be well, you've just, you've just, you've given us a signal this,
Natalie Ware 47:55
I would agree with that. We're
Andrew Decker 47:56
just gonna go with you've given us a signal. I would agree with that.
Andrew Herreth 48:00
What about what about a book you're currently reading? One you recommend
Natalie Ware 48:07
the book I always recommend to others, one of the books. I read it years ago, but it has just stuck with me so much. It's such a beautiful story. It's called a little life. It's about four college friends in New York, but it takes you through their life. And I mean, it is just, it's heart wrenching. It's so wonderfully beautiful and happy at points, but also just, you know, I love a book that, like, really hits me in the fields, and that's definitely the one that's hit me hardest.
Andrew Herreth 48:33
A Little Life, all right, little life.
Natalie Ware 48:35
It's by Hanya. I don't know how to say the last name, so I'm not gonna butcher Yara, I don't know, but it's wonderful. You should absolutely read
Andrew Decker 48:44
it. So what if you have no feelings?
Natalie Ware 48:47
I think it might make you feel. I think it I really, genuinely think it could.
Andrew Decker 48:53
I'm sure workers can probably
Andrew Herreth 48:54
put you in touch with a therapist, yeah,
Natalie Ware 48:56
and we can get you help with that at the math. Yeah, I'm pretty
Andrew Decker 49:00
good. I'm pretty good not having feelings.
Andrew Herreth 49:04
Okay, so the big one, the last one, Doc, you want to ask this one? Yeah.
Andrew Decker 49:08
So what's the best piece of advice you've been given?
Natalie Ware 49:13
I mean, I think the best piece of advice I've ever been given really came from my parents, and it's so general, but I feel like it has taken me place. Just trust your gut. Trust your gut on people, trust your gut on things. Trust your gut on decisions. Trust your guts. And then the best advice, the second best advice, I feel like, which goes along with it, is I sleep on it, like I sleep on everything. I don't rush into decisions. I'm asleep on it girl. And so I would say those are the two things that have guided me well in life. That's great, simple, but true.
Andrew Herreth 49:49
So we have the the on the Mac website, Mac dot Harris County, tx.gov, there's a Contact Us page with an office number and contact us for. Form and all that.
Natalie Ware 50:00
And a feedback form. Which feedback form? Yes, let me know anything you see our attorneys doing in the courthouse, wonderful, questionable clients can use it that also.
Andrew Decker 50:13
If you don't like this episode, normally, we would say, make sure that Mr. Herreth knows. But if you don't need feedback, you can send it right back to the Mac and let them know how you feel. Let me know how you
Andrew Herreth 50:22
feel about me. Yes, I was gonna say like we have people throughout the state that listen to us, not very many people, but there's plenty of people throughout the state that will listen to the show, and if they're interested in maybe taking some steps to create an office, or whatever, you know, go to go to that web address to give the office a call. Natalie, I know is very giving over time. Porsche, I know is very giving over time. Anybody who wants to sit down and talk to us has definitely like sacrificing time. You know, you know, feel feel free. Feel free to reach out.
Natalie Ware 50:58
Yeah, absolutely. We're always happy to do it. And tidc is also a wealth of information. So a plug for them. They have great information regarding Macs around the state and how to start a Mac program. But we are always willing and willing to, you know, help out. However, we can.
Andrew Decker 51:16
Excellent, wonderful, excellent. Well, don't forget, ladies and gentlemen, that you can follow Andrew and Andrew on Texas criminal defense, on the web, on our Facebook. I think we still have an x, but I don't care anymore.
Andrew Herreth 51:34
We don't have to plug x. I was gonna
Natalie Ware 51:36
say who's still on x? That's what I'm saying.
Andrew Decker 51:40
I think it still exists, but I haven't looked at in a while. But obviously you can, you can email Andrew Herreth or Andrew Decker if you would like to ask a question to be on the show. I still get lots and lots of comments about the adventures in West Texas, and that's truly a listener who said, I've got a story for you, and it is one is our recently our most popular episode. So please reach out to us. Let us know if there's a topic or an idea or a guest that we need to have on the show. Reach out to us. Anything else for us?
Andrew Herreth 52:15
Mr. Herreth, I don't believe so just thank you, Natalie, for joining us. It's really informative.
Natalie Ware 52:21
Thank you guys and have fun. It was fun. Let me know if y'all need anything.
Andrew Decker 52:25
Thank you for finally, absolutely. Andy, how to be a good attorney. Yeah, I have. I've been fine for years, and thank you for that.
Natalie Ware 52:33
We're just getting his emotions. So, all right,
Andrew Decker 52:37
so, so for Andrew Herreth, I'm Andrew Decker.
Andrew Herreth 52:40
For Andrew Decker. I'm Andrew Herreth. You all be good. I.