Interview with Gerry Goldstein: 50 Years of Criminal Defense Wisdom | Texas Criminal Defense Podcast Ep. 3
Gerry Goldstein: Fifty Years Defending Liberty
Very few lawyers become legends while they're still practicing.
Even fewer remain as passionate after five decades as they were on their first day in court.
Gerry Goldstein is one of those rare attorneys.
For more than fifty years, he has stood beside people accused of crimes, challenged government overreach, defended constitutional rights, and helped shape modern criminal defense practice in Texas.
In Episode 3 of the Texas Criminal Defense Podcast, Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker traveled to Goldstein's office on the twenty-ninth floor overlooking downtown San Antonio and the Alamo to sit down with one of the most influential criminal defense lawyers Texas has ever produced.
The conversation quickly became much more than an interview.
It became a master class.
Not simply on criminal law.
But on why criminal defense matters.
Walking Into History
The setting alone carries symbolic weight.
Goldstein's office overlooks Alamo Plaza.
Few places better represent Texas history.
Yet inside that office sits someone whose own history has become intertwined with Texas criminal defense.
By the time this interview was recorded, Goldstein had practiced law for over fifty years after graduating from the University of Texas School of Law in 1968.
When Andrew Decker asks what motivates him to continue practicing after half a century, Goldstein doesn't hesitate.
The excitement hasn't faded.
He still feels the same rush every time he announces:
"Jerry Goldstein on behalf of..."
Those words still matter.
Because behind every appearance stands another person whose liberty is at stake.
Law School Was Never the Plan
One of the most surprising revelations comes almost immediately.
Goldstein never intended to become a lawyer.
His father practiced law.
But Gerry had different ideas.
Like many young Americans during the Vietnam era, he faced the possibility of being drafted.
Law school initially became a practical decision rather than a lifelong dream.
It delayed military service.
What happened afterward changed everything.
Law school exposed him to something much larger than a profession.
It introduced him to a calling.
He realized that lawyers possess a unique ability to influence society, protect individuals, and challenge government power.
More than fifty years later, that purpose remains unchanged.
Criminal Defense Is Public Service
One of the strongest themes running throughout the interview is that criminal defense is fundamentally public service.
Goldstein rejects the popular misconception that defense lawyers simply help guilty people avoid punishment.
Instead, he sees criminal defense attorneys as guardians of constitutional institutions.
He readily acknowledges that he has spent decades criticizing prosecutors, judges, and even the Department of Justice when criticism was warranted.
Yet he remains deeply proud to be part of the justice system.
Those two ideas are not contradictory.
They are complementary.
Strong institutions require honest criticism.
Defending constitutional rights often requires challenging the government itself.
That's precisely what criminal defense lawyers are supposed to do.
Why Institutions Matter
Goldstein repeatedly returns to one concern.
America's legal institutions deserve protection.
Whether discussing courts, constitutional rights, or the legal profession itself, he worries about growing attacks on institutions that form the foundation of American democracy.
He notes that criminal defense lawyers frequently criticize the justice system.
They should.
That's part of their role.
But criticism differs from destruction.
Lawyers should strengthen institutions by demanding accountability—not by undermining public confidence in the rule of law itself.
This distinction becomes increasingly important in an era of political polarization.
For Goldstein, constitutional advocacy is not partisan.
It's principled.
Inspired by Maury Maverick Jr.
Every great lawyer has mentors.
For Gerry Goldstein, one of the most influential was Maury Maverick Jr.
Goldstein recounts traveling throughout Texas together during the late 1960s representing draft resisters and conscientious objectors.
Those cases weren't always popular.
In many communities, they were deeply controversial.
Yet Goldstein remembers those years with unmistakable affection.
They represented a time when lawyers willingly took unpopular cases because constitutional principles demanded representation.
He also shares fascinating stories about the Maverick family, whose history reaches back to Samuel Maverick and even the Alamo.
The anecdotes illustrate how history, politics, and law often intersect in unexpected ways.
Defending People You Believe In
One line from Maury Maverick stayed with Goldstein throughout his career.
Represent people whose causes matter to you.
Over time, Goldstein's client base expanded far beyond political activists.
Yet the underlying philosophy remained constant.
Criminal defense is about standing beside individuals when the government seeks to take away their liberty.
Whether representing political protesters decades ago or defendants charged with serious felonies today, the mission remains remarkably similar.
Protect constitutional rights.
Demand fairness.
Hold the government to its burden of proof.
A Career Built One Case at a Time
Andrew Herreth eventually asks a question every trial lawyer enjoys answering.
What's your favorite case?
Goldstein laughs.
After fifty years, the cases begin to blur together.
You forget more than you remember.
Instead of identifying one defining victory, he points around his office.
The walls are filled with framed newspaper clippings documenting famous cases from throughout his career.
Each one represents not merely a legal victory but a chapter in a professional life dedicated to criminal defense.
Interestingly, Goldstein says something every experienced trial lawyer understands.
The victories are memorable.
But the losses teach just as much.
The "Hen Yard" Philosophy
Goldstein recalls another lesson from Maury Maverick Jr.
Practicing criminal law is like a hen pecking around a farmyard.
Most pecks produce nothing.
Occasionally, one uncovers a kernel of corn.
The rest produce something far less valuable.
It's an earthy analogy.
It's also remarkably accurate.
Most criminal defense work isn't glamorous.
It's countless hours reviewing discovery.
Researching motions.
Interviewing witnesses.
Negotiating with prosecutors.
Preparing for hearings that may last only minutes.
Every so often, however, everything aligns.
The evidence falls apart.
The jury returns a not guilty verdict.
A client gets another chance at life.
Those moments make all the other work worthwhile.
Criminal Justice Reform
The interview then shifts toward a broader discussion about incarceration.
Goldstein expresses deep concern over America's reliance on lengthy prison sentences.
He questions why the United States incarcerates such a large percentage of its population.
He also highlights what many criminal defense attorneys observe every day:
The burden falls disproportionately upon poor communities and communities of color.
Even after individuals complete their sentences, collateral consequences continue.
Difficulty finding employment.
Loss of voting rights.
Housing challenges.
Educational barriers.
Limited rehabilitation opportunities.
Goldstein argues that society should seriously reconsider whether current policies actually reduce crime or merely perpetuate cycles of incarceration.
Hunter S. Thompson and NORML
Among the interview's lighter moments is Goldstein's discussion of his longtime involvement with the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML).
Serving on NORML's board introduced him to one of America's most colorful writers:
Hunter S. Thompson.
Goldstein laughs while recalling Thompson as one of the most entertaining—and challenging—clients imaginable.
Stories from Thompson's famous Owl Farm, conversations with Keith Richards, and bizarre public statements provide listeners with a glimpse into an extraordinary chapter of criminal defense history.
Although humorous, these stories also illustrate something larger.
Criminal defense lawyers often find themselves representing remarkable personalities whose lives extend far beyond the courtroom.
Privacy May Become the Defining Legal Issue of the Twenty-First Century
When Andrew Decker asks whether any legal issue particularly motivates him today, Goldstein's answer is immediate.
Privacy.
Specifically, the erosion of privacy caused by advancing technology.
He worries that constitutional law has not fully adapted to a world of smartphones, GPS tracking, digital surveillance, and massive data collection.
The Founding Fathers drafted the Fourth Amendment to protect against physical intrusions into homes, papers, and personal effects.
Today's intrusions are different.
Invisible.
Constant.
Often commercial.
Sometimes governmental.
Frequently both.
The Fourth Amendment Must Continue to Evolve
Goldstein explains that original understandings of the Constitution cannot always answer modern technological questions.
The Founders never imagined:
smartphones;
cloud storage;
GPS monitoring;
facial recognition;
digital marketing;
data brokers;
location tracking.
Yet these technologies arguably reveal far more about individuals than traditional physical searches ever could.
A smartphone doesn't merely reveal where someone lives.
It reveals:
where they worship;
who they call;
what they read;
where they travel;
what they purchase;
what they believe.
Perhaps most importantly, it reveals patterns of life.
Goldstein argues that constitutional protections must evolve to address these modern realities.
Surveillance Has Changed Everything
One of the most compelling portions of the interview centers on how technology has fundamentally altered the relationship between citizens and the government.
Goldstein argues that the Fourth Amendment's traditional framework was developed to address physical searches—government agents entering homes, searching papers, or seizing tangible property.
Today's searches often look nothing like that.
Instead, they happen silently.
They occur through smartphones, GPS data, cloud storage, facial recognition software, social media platforms, commercial data brokers, and countless digital services people use every day without giving them much thought.
Goldstein isn't simply concerned about law enforcement.
He's equally concerned about private companies collecting extraordinary amounts of personal information before later making it available to government agencies.
That distinction matters.
Historically, constitutional protections focused on government action.
Today, however, corporations routinely gather information that the government once would have needed a warrant to obtain.
The result, Goldstein suggests, is that privacy may be disappearing not through dramatic constitutional amendments, but through convenience.
Smartphones Changed the Fourth Amendment
Perhaps nowhere is this more evident than with smartphones.
Goldstein describes modern cell phones as containing virtually every aspect of a person's life.
Location history.
Communications.
Contacts.
Photographs.
Financial records.
Medical information.
Political interests.
Religious beliefs.
Shopping habits.
Personal relationships.
Unlike a search of someone's desk drawer, a search of a smartphone can reveal years of intimate details about an individual's life.
This reality, he argues, requires courts to rethink traditional Fourth Amendment analysis.
The constitutional principles remain the same.
The technology has changed.
The law must account for that reality.
Convenience Has a Cost
Throughout the interview, Goldstein repeatedly returns to one word:
Convenience.
Consumers willingly trade personal information for convenience every day.
Navigation apps know where we drive.
Retailers know what we buy.
Streaming services know what we watch.
Search engines know what interests us.
Social media platforms know who we interact with.
Most people appreciate these conveniences.
Few stop to consider what they cost.
Goldstein points out that companies collect enormous quantities of information because it has tremendous commercial value.
Once collected, however, that same information often becomes available to government investigators through legal mechanisms that were unimaginable when the Bill of Rights was drafted.
For criminal defense lawyers, this presents an entirely new generation of constitutional questions.
GPS Tracking and Digital Monitoring
Andrew Decker adds another modern example.
Pretrial defendants frequently wear GPS ankle monitors as a condition of bond.
Unlike traditional supervision, these devices record a person's location continuously.
Not simply whether someone traveled across town.
But often precisely where they stood.
What building they entered.
How long they remained there.
Goldstein notes that this type of surveillance differs fundamentally from older investigative techniques.
Historically, following a suspect required substantial manpower and resources.
Today, technology performs that function automatically, twenty-four hours a day.
That difference is not merely quantitative.
It is qualitative.
Continuous digital monitoring creates a comprehensive record of an individual's movements that previous generations could scarcely imagine.
Riley v. California and Modern Privacy
Goldstein references the United States Supreme Court's decision in Riley v. California as one example of courts recognizing that smartphones are fundamentally different from traditional physical objects.
A cellphone is not simply another item carried in a person's pocket.
It is, in many respects, a digital record of an entire life.
As Goldstein explains, technology forces courts to reconsider constitutional principles in ways the Founders never anticipated.
For younger lawyers, this discussion serves as an important reminder.
Tomorrow's landmark Fourth Amendment cases may involve technologies that do not yet exist.
The constitutional principles endure.
The factual settings continue to evolve.
The Human Side of Criminal Defense
Despite spending much of the interview discussing constitutional law, Goldstein continually returns to people.
Cases matter because people matter.
Liberty matters because individuals matter.
Criminal defense, in his view, is ultimately about standing beside another human being when the government seeks to exercise its greatest power.
That perspective explains why, after more than fifty years, he still experiences excitement walking into court.
Every case represents another opportunity to ensure constitutional protections remain meaningful rather than merely symbolic.
Learning From Every Generation
One particularly striking aspect of the conversation is Goldstein's willingness to engage with younger attorneys.
Rather than presenting himself as someone who has all the answers, he encourages continued learning and participation in organizations such as the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association (TCDLA).
He emphasizes that outstanding criminal defense lawyers exist throughout Texas.
The future of criminal defense belongs not only to well-known names, but to younger attorneys willing to continue defending constitutional rights.
It's an encouraging message.
Great lawyers build institutions.
Great institutions develop future lawyers.
Music, Literature, and a Life Well Lived
Like previous episodes, the interview concludes with lighter questions.
Asked about his favorite band, Goldstein immediately chooses The Rolling Stones.
His stories extend well beyond simply enjoying their music.
He recalls seeing the band before they achieved worldwide fame, attending concerts decades later, and even interacting with Keith Richards through his friendship with Hunter S. Thompson.
When asked about books, Goldstein selects Ernest Hemingway, particularly The Sun Also Rises.
His admiration goes beyond literature.
He recounts traveling to Pamplona, running with the bulls, and later requiring his son to read Hemingway's novel before making the same journey together.
The stories reinforce an important point.
Great trial lawyers often draw inspiration from experiences outside the courtroom.
Travel.
History.
Literature.
Music.
Those experiences shape perspective.
Perspective shapes advocacy.
Humility After Fifty Years
Perhaps the most remarkable quality displayed throughout the interview is humility.
Despite decades of accolades and national recognition, Goldstein repeatedly redirects attention away from himself.
When listeners ask how to find an attorney like Gerry Goldstein, he encourages them not simply to call him.
Instead, he points them toward the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association.
He reminds listeners that exceptional criminal defense attorneys practice throughout Texas.
Many younger lawyers are doing extraordinary work protecting constitutional rights every day.
That response says a great deal about his view of the profession.
Criminal defense is not about individual fame.
It is about collective service.
Why This Interview Matters
The Texas Criminal Defense Podcast has already introduced listeners to its two hosts.
Episode 3 broadens the conversation.
Rather than discussing individual careers, this episode explores the philosophy underlying criminal defense practice itself.
Goldstein's reflections challenge lawyers to think beyond individual cases.
They encourage attorneys to consider larger questions:
Why does the Fourth Amendment matter?
How should constitutional law evolve alongside technology?
What responsibilities accompany the privilege of representing another person's liberty?
How can criminal defense lawyers strengthen the justice system while simultaneously holding it accountable?
These questions extend far beyond Texas.
They reach the heart of what it means to practice criminal law in a constitutional democracy.
Conclusion
Few attorneys leave an imprint on a profession the way Gerry Goldstein has.
Over more than five decades, he has represented clients in landmark cases, defended unpopular causes, challenged government overreach, mentored generations of criminal defense lawyers, and remained fiercely committed to protecting constitutional freedoms.
Yet what stands out most during this interview is not his résumé.
It is his enthusiasm.
Even after fifty years, he still smiles when discussing jury trials.
He still becomes animated talking about constitutional rights.
He still believes criminal defense lawyers perform essential work safeguarding liberty.
That passion is contagious.
For experienced practitioners, the interview serves as a reminder of why many entered criminal defense in the first place.
For younger lawyers, it offers a blueprint for building a career grounded not merely in technical skill, but in purpose.
As technology reshapes constitutional law and criminal practice continues evolving, Gerry Goldstein's message remains remarkably timeless:
Stand up.
Speak up.
Protect liberty.
And never forget that behind every criminal case stands a human being deserving of a vigorous defense.
Key Takeaways
Gerry Goldstein has spent more than 50 years practicing criminal defense while maintaining the same passion he felt entering the profession.
He believes criminal defense lawyers play a critical role in preserving constitutional institutions through principled advocacy and accountability.
His early work with Maury Maverick Jr. shaped his philosophy of defending individual liberties, even in unpopular cases.
The practice of criminal law requires persistence, humility, and the willingness to endure countless setbacks in pursuit of occasional, meaningful victories.
Goldstein argues that modern surveillance technology presents one of the greatest constitutional challenges facing criminal defense lawyers today.
Smartphones, GPS tracking, commercial data collection, and digital surveillance require courts to rethink traditional Fourth Amendment analysis.
Great criminal defense lawyers draw from experiences outside the courtroom—including history, literature, travel, and music—to become more effective advocates.
The future of criminal defense depends on younger attorneys continuing the profession's tradition of defending constitutional rights and protecting individual liberty.
What can more than fifty years in the courtroom teach today's criminal defense lawyers? In Episode 3, Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker sit down with legendary Texas criminal defense attorney Gerry Goldstein to discuss trial advocacy, constitutional rights, privacy in the digital age, and the enduring responsibility of criminal defense lawyers to protect liberty. More than a career retrospective, this conversation is a masterclass on why criminal defense matters—and why the Fourth Amendment remains as vital today as ever.
Andrew Herreth 0:21
Hello. This is Andrew Herreth. You're listening to Andrew and Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense. I'm with my co-host Andrew Decker, and in this episode, the third episode, we are interviewing Jerry Goldstein. Andrew, what do you think about this interview, man?
Andrew Decker 0:38
Wow, it was so exciting. We had the opportunity to be in his office. We were there for about an hour. He was super busy. Literally, had people coming in and out answering questions for him as we were setting up. He talked to us a little bit. We discussed we were going what we were going to interview him. We interviewed him. I dare you to sit back and relax. He is so energetic, so passionate. Let's just get right to it because this is going to be fun. All right. Do I need to start over? Okay. All right. So I'm Andrew Decker, and I'm here with Andrew Herreth in our podcast, Texas Criminal Defense, and we are here in the office of Jerry Goldstein, a criminal defense attorney of note, of wealth of inspiration to many of us. We're in San Antonio in his office on the 29th floor of the Tower Building, and he has agreed to share a little bit of time with us as we get ready for the annual Rusty Duncan Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association meeting, and so first of all, thank you for giving us a little bit of your time. We know your time is incredibly valuable, and that we are blessed just to let you squeeze us into your office for a few minutes.
Gerry Goldstein 1:53
I'm flattered to have y'all here, and quite frankly, it is my pleasure.
Andrew Decker 1:58
Well, thank you. So we're going to start off with something easy. You graduated in 1968 from the University of Texas Law School, and and our main question, I think, and the question that we look at as as criminal defense attorneys, is how do you maintain the fire? What motivates you to put your pants on and come to work every morning after 50 years,
Gerry Goldstein 2:22
well, I, quite frankly, in the early 60s, I was a fledgling young hippie. I had no intent. My dad was a lawyer, but I didn't have any intention of becoming a lawyer, I actually went to law school so I could stay out of the the draft. It was I was getting notices that it was my turn to go out and kill or be killed, and I guess a little bit like our current president, I didn't want to go. I will say that many of my classmates did, and we have met each other on the other side of the earth, but law school was a very enlightening experience for me. It showed me a path to a profession where I had an opportunity to try and make a difference, and that hasn't changed one fucking bit from the day I started. And I will tell you that it's still exciting, and I still get a chill up my spine, and the hair on the back of my neck still stands up every time I walk into a courtroom and announce ready for trial those words, Your Honor Jerry Goldstein, on behalf of whoever. I my engines start, and that hasn't changed a bit in 50 years. It's it's exciting. We happen to be in a profession. It's there's a little bit of street theater, but people's lives and liberty are at stake, and we do have an opportunity to change things. You know, appearing I'm not sure y'all have, but when you walk into the Supreme Court of the United States, it's it's inspiring. Not because it's so August, the ceremonial courtroom at the Fifth Circuit is a bigger venue. It's intimate, but you understand that that's an institution like many of our institutions, and that's one of the things I worry about today. I see so many, including our executive trash institutions. Look, I'm one of the most outspoken, outspoken critics of the Justice Department of the Judiciary. I don't waste a minute to criticize them when they deserve it, but I'm part of that system, and I'm proud of being part of that system, and it's the best system I think around, and I think it's critically important that we spend our time supporting those institutions because that's what we're doing. That's what we wake up. You see, wake up, put your pants on, put a starched white shirt on or blouse, pull your shoulders back, stick your chin up, and you you take pride in what you're doing. So, I I still get a kick out of it. The idea that you know, let's face it, back in '68 I was doing draft resistor conscience gesture cases with Mari Maverick. I travel all over the state and all over the country doing that. Mari always told me you only want to represent people whose crimes you agree with. That's changed, but you know Maury Jr. was an amazing individual. The the I can digress for just a moment because he inspired me to do what I do. Don't forget, his great great grandfather was Samuel Maverick, who, in the legend of Paul Revere's etching of the Boston Massacre, it shows Samuel Maverick with Christmas attucks dying in his arms. They both lay in state in Faneuil Hall. After that, his grandson Sam Maverick was a lawyer at the Alamo. Who, when the commander William Barrett Travis wanted to send somebody over to warn Sam Houston at San Jacinto that they were under siege, he sent Sam Maverick. He was a lawyer. He knew he could read and write. In William Morris's book *North Towards Home* Maury Jr. is quoted as saying, "That's the only time he's certain education ever did anybody in his family any good.
Andrew Decker 6:57
Saved his life.
Gerry Goldstein 6:57
Yeah, and Maury Jr. When Jack Kennedy was running for president, you can see the Alamo right out my window here. John Kennedy was giving a speech in front of the Alamo, and the they had no idea what it would be like to have a Catholic running for president for the first time that could win, and there were quarter million people in that little bitty plaza, and the advance man came back to Murray Jr. the congressman. We got to get the senator out the back door. We'll never get him through this crowd. And Murray made Murray Jr. made the headlines on both papers. We had two at the time, gentlemen. If there was a back door to the Alamo, we wouldn't have so many dead Texas heroes. The The I started practicing with people that were taught me about the importance of speaking up, and I haven't quit, and it it has been a life's work. It was 1968. I met my bride of 50 years, who's still a lovely lady. She's the most beautiful. She lied to me. She told me she was 11 when we got married. But she, you know, we had a Volkswagen. Mari Maverick and I would travel around. I had a Volkswagen bus. We had taken the seats out, put a Persian carpet down, had little pillows in it, big peace symbol on the back of it, Ramsey Clark for president sticker on the bumper. We got run out of more counties. Then, you know, free speech, free love or blossoming flower alike from their underground abode. It was a wonderful, inspiring time, and it was a great time to start practice. Nobody else wanted to do that shit, right? You know, I I got to do the stuff I really wanted to do that I was inspired to do, and your friend Tim Evans and we, we tried Doug Tinker, Ed Millett, Dick Gurin. There were so many lawyers that you were so proud to be in the courtroom with, and we had we had a grand old time, and I still enjoy walking into courtrooms and representing citizens, I worked for my dad, who had a carpet firm here for a little while. This, our offices have been in this building for over 70 years. So, but I didn't enjoy representing things and money. I people's lives. lives and their liberty were important, important to them, important to me, and I think important in the long run to society. And I think the criminal defense bar plays an important role in our institutions, and we can take a great deal. Pride in what we do.
Andrew Decker 10:01
Excellent, excellent. I'm going to hand it off to Andrew Herreth. He's going to ask you a couple of questions.
Andrew Herreth 10:08
Jerry, over a just such a long, prestigious career, do you have that that favorite case? Andrew and I often talk about. You know, we like to tell the war stories or the successes that we've had. I always seem to go back to the same story, and and I've I've been licensed for for about just over 10 years now. But I can imagine that you probably have 10 favorite cases. But is there one that just sticks out in your head?
Gerry Goldstein 10:39
Quite frankly, you forget more shit than you remember.
Andrew Herreth 10:42
Right. Yeah.
Gerry Goldstein 10:43
But if you look around on our walls, or all the wonderful news clippings of all the cases we won, a famous lawyer, Michael Kennedy, came from New York once, and he said, "Goldstein, if you put up an article for every case you lost, you'd need two or three more buildings. The truth of the matter is, it is the cases that make your career. And I kind of like walking around. I even they remind me of wonderful times. That wonderful gentleman that I started the practice with my dad and Maury Maverick Jr. and Maury Maverick told me back in '68. He said, "You know, Jerry, the practice of criminal law is a-it's like the old hen in the hen yard. Peck, peck, peck, peck all over the place. Every 100 pecks you come up with a kernel of corn. The rest of the time, it's a beak full of shit, and you're willing to wade through the shit for those kernels of corn. Every one of them are wonderful, and it's not just the cases that you won, that you heard the two-word verdict. It's the people, many of whom, you know, back in the old days, you got repeat business, even if you did lose a case.
Andrew Herreth 12:06
Right. You know, there
Gerry Goldstein 12:07
were things like probation and sentences where people actually got out at some point. Now, these draconian sentences, we need to relook at what we're doing. I mean, there's no reason why the United States should be leading the world in incarcerating the largest percentage of our population. And by the way, by and large, they're the poor, the disenfranchised, the people of color. We can't take any pride in what we're doing, and the idea that the collateral consequences not only are we locking them up forever, they can't get a job when they get out. They can't get we deprive them of food stamps, of the right to vote, of just you know the. And then we wonder why they go back to crime. Well, shit, they've been locked up for 10 years with a bunch of other crooks, and we don't give them any education. We don't provide them with any rehabilitation, and they sit around jerking off, talking to each other about committing crimes. Right. So, yeah, duh.
Andrew Herreth 13:11
Yeah. The I know you know early in your career you represented well as the normal case? I don't know if you could speak on that.
Gerry Goldstein 13:25
Well, the the gentleman that started Norml is a gentleman by the name of Keith Strop. He was actually an old law partner of mine, and he put me on the board of Normal in 1970, probably before the two of you were born, and that's. that's how I met Hunter Thompson. Hunter was on the board with me, which brings me-you know-it was Hunter Fun to represent. He was the biggest pay me ass, probably a bigger pay me ass at any client I've ever had. But you know what a eclectic life to be able to, you know, I'd go out to Owl Farm, his place outside of Aspen, and you know, you get to talk about sports with George Plimpton or watch a nude female motorcycle gang from Louisiana. You know, it's hot tub. It was, you know, it was one thing or another. But you know, that what a wonderful deal, you know. When we, when the our representative in two cases, one of the first cases, he makes the front page of the Aspen Times after the DA dismissed the trial charges against him. He said that's a total act of cowardice, and I've instructed mr. Goldstein to appeal my case to the Supreme Court at once. So you know we we did have fun along the way as well as get to represent people.
Andrew Herreth 14:50
Sounds like it. All
Andrew Decker 14:52
right. So is there because there are cases and then there are legal issues and those are some. Sometimes very different. Is there a legal issue that sits kind of at the core of your being? One that you that you like going to bat on on any given day? Maybe not a winner, but one that that that.
Gerry Goldstein 15:14
It's probably the particular sorry. It's probably the particular issue on a given day. you know, I've spent a lot of time concerned about our rights to privacy because I think that's one of the things that, when a totalitarian government imposes its will on the people, your your right to protest, your right to speak, is probably at the at the crux of of freedom. And you know when you when you look at what's going on today, and I'm going to speak about this on Saturday to our group, technology has changed a lot. It is, by its very nature, it's stealing from us our expectation of privacy, whatever that is. And that term may be a fleeting part of our legal history, but it. I am. concerned that this originalist concept, Scalia's and now Gorsuch, who's a textualist, M. Cavanaugh. This idea that we look to the interpretation of our founding fathers at the time that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written, well, I've talked about this before, but think about it: the the words that those founding fathers wrote-I think it was Thomas Jefferson-All men are created equal. They meant that they were not gender perfect. Women didn't get the right to vote or sit on juries until half a century after African Americans.
Andrew Decker 17:06
And really, it was white landowning men were created equal.
Gerry Goldstein 17:10
Exactly, and we now know that the our constitutional rights can't be the exclusive domain of the privileged few. Times have changed, so have we, and when you when you get down to it, the founding fathers were afraid of something a little different. They we still have it. They were afraid of the redcoats using a writ of assistance and breaking down their their front door and rummaging through their underwear drawers. They they were worried about protecting persons, houses, papers, and effects, and you, Gorsuch and Thomas, still believe those are the only things. I I believe Scalia and probably Gorsuch would argue that businesses may not. They're not how businesses, houses, businesses are not houses or people or or effects. We may be. We can't limit it to what they were looking at. I mean, they were looking at a physical search, something that you could feel, see, taste. These, this new electronic surveillance, the digital data mining that you see today, it's stealth-like. It you can't see it, you can't feel it, and perhaps it's more dangerous. Perhaps it's more sinister because of that, because it it it cuts at the crossroads between your right under the Fourth Amendment to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures and your First Amendment rights to free speech, to free association, and maybe it steals something more valuable than your than your effects or your property steals your thoughts and your communications, and maybe that was what the founding fathers were the most afraid of.
Andrew Decker 18:52
Right. Yeah. One of the the technology pieces they that they would have had no idea of that that bothers me. You end up with a guy on a bond bond caseload, so you and I and mr. Herreth all know that means that he's not been convicted of anything, or she, but because of the nature of the offense, they're on a bond and they strap an ankle monitor on him. So effectively, that person is never free from search, because his location is known 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And the
Gerry Goldstein 19:26
chief justice, in unanimous opinion, which I know you all are familiar with, Roddy versus California, talks about the fact that knowing every place you go and every place-not just the town, the city, the building, but the room and the part of the room that you're in is different qualitatively and quantitatively than what we normally used to see. It used to require real-time searching. It required a lot of resources. That's not true anymore. We walk around with a digital monitor. Called a GPS device, and it's built into our. As long as our phone is not turned off, we don't have to be talking about it. It it's telling somebody. It's telling them where you are.
Andrew Decker 20:10
And we're thankful it helped us find your office.
Gerry Goldstein 20:12
Well, and and by the way, that that's one of the problems: convenience, security, having security cameras everywhere. Think about it. Sernaria, the guy that in the Boston Marathon bombing, Larden Taylor, a commercial enterprise, had a had a security camera. It caught him red-handed. But just think about: within days, they had his his telephone conversation with his mom, how did they get that? Did they were they listening to his phone? No, all international telephone calls are digital. They're not. We don't transmit them by wire anymore or by radio signal. Well, just like they can grasp the numbers that you dial, that digital they now have Google actually provides a mechanism to search the digital communication, so that they are able to figure out who it is. They can now. We won't get into how scary it is, but it's. We've come a long way, and it's and with all the convenience and all the security, it it means that we have no longer the autonomy of a free person in the sense that the government isn't aware of everything we do. Look, Walmart knows what aisle you walk down when you walk into the store, but they can't find a triple seven jumbo jet in the South Indian Sea. There's a reason for that; it's commercially viable, and we may have crossed that threshold. We may not be able to ever get that back. Title Three, the wiretap, federal wiretap statute, makes it a crime for anybody to wiretap. That was easy. Who wiretaps? Police and jealous spouses. But this other information-the digital mining of who you're calling, what you're interested in, where you are, what you do-is viable demographics to politicians, to retailers to any marketing operation, and they are using that. They're gonna, they're gonna, they're stealing that from us. And interestingly enough, there are private companies that now sell that information to the law enforcement, so that it's not any longer. It's and some of them do little else, and so this idea of state action, there's there's no requirement of state action technically, literally in the Constitution. We may have to rethink that. It may maybe we need to in this digital age. Maybe we need to expand that to include anyone acquiring that kind of information, it's it's what the chief justice said in Riley. It it it has everyone's information. It has everything about you. It's your entire life that's in that in a in a computer we call a cell phone. Right, and if we want to preserve privacy, and I'll be honest with you, younger generation may not be as interested in it. They might like the. My son loves the idea that they tell him, "Well, you bought that, you might like this. They're not just looking at what he just bought. They've got a profile. Everything they know when he took a dump, they know everything about it. No, it's you know when you.
Andrew Decker 23:45
Well, now you can take a dump in a box and find out if you have cancer. I mean, they really do know exactly what it has. Well,
Gerry Goldstein 23:51
and in China, they had a recent. I read an article in the Atlantic Magazine a few months back that in China they now have facial recognition. I hope it's facial recognition in public toilets. That they've determined that 23.6 inches of toilet paper is adequate. And when you use more than that much toilet paper, it cuts you off. And then if you come back within nine minutes, it recognize. I hope it recognizes your face, and it won't give you any toilet paper, which may save a lot of trees. But think of all the the wasteful detergent that is being used just to clean your underwear after having stopped midterm
Andrew Decker 24:40
Chinese food. Yeah,
Gerry Goldstein 24:41
mid mid white. Yeah. Anyway,
Andrew Decker 24:44
all right. You want to ask our last two questions?
Andrew Herreth 24:48
I get I get the easy questions. Jerry, you host a famous party every year during Rusty Duncan. And you know I
Gerry Goldstein 24:55
love parties.
Andrew Herreth 24:56
Well, it's evident because it's. It's a it's one to look forward to every year. Pachanga at your house. So speaking of parties, do you have a favorite band?
Gerry Goldstein 25:08
Yeah, I think the greatest rock and roll band that ever walked the face of the earth was is the Rolling Stones, and I was glad to see the Mick up and around, and we've got tickets to see them at Red Rocks in Denver. I saw them first in Amsterdam in 1963, before the Beatles came to the United States, and the streets had been painted with the words "Rolling Stone. These guys are forever. By the way, Keith Richards had a BBC show that he did interviews. He was living in New York, but he did it for BBC, and he came out to Alpharm to interview Hunter one time, and I was the designated prop with with Hunter, and the two of them spent easily 45 minutes. You know, no one, including the the text, could understand a single word either one of them said. But they seemed to be engaged in this wonderful conversation, and they I I'm sure they understood each other perfectly. But those guys, and I'm I'm dying to get some Keith Richards' monkey blood. I mean, I he kept him alive. Look, you look at that guy. He looks like death formed over, but he's still out there cranking that guitar. You know, you want to talk about how do they get up every morning and put their pants on and do this? It's amazing to me. That is amazing. Anyway, I like their their music. I love. I I never cease to enjoy listening to some of those tunes. And my son, who's 28, agrees with me. Although he listens to a lot of techno stuff that I find tedious and irritating, but he's a big rock and roll fan. He loves listening to that. At his bar mitzvah, by the way, in Aspen, we pulled up, and the car had cranked up on the CD Jimi Hendrix cover of All Along the Watchtower, and I thought, God, the only thing that's lacking is the windows roll down with the marijuana smoke coming out of it, but he now lives in the free state of Colorado and is very happy.
Andrew Herreth 27:25
Very good, very good. What about a favorite book?
Gerry Goldstein 27:30
I'm old-fashioned and I'm I'm a Hemingway file. I did in '64. I ran with the Bulls in Pamplona at San Fermín, and a few years back, I took my son and his best buddy to take the trip by train from San Sebastian to to Pamplona. But I made them read the sun also rises three times, and there was a pop quiz along the way, and I'm glad to say that they did very well.
Andrew Decker 28:06
Of course. Well, well. Again, thank you so much for your time. I want to ask you one more question. Sure. How would people find you if they hear this and they're like, "I need that guy as my attorney" How would they find you, or how would they find your office?
Gerry Goldstein 28:20
Well, we're in the tallest building on the top floor. In what, when I was a young youngster in the 50s, this was the tallest building in the largest city in the largest state in the union. A lot's changed since then. You can find me on the internet, my phones are all listed. But let me tell you something. There's a group called the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association. That's a marvelous organization, and there's younger lawyers better than I who are actively participating, actively engaged in the defense of citizens, I always like to say wrongfully accused of crime, and I would suggest reaching out to your local members of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association (TCDLA) You're going to be surprised. Jerry Goldstein might be the oldest member of the group, but there's a remarkable, dedicated defense lawyer in a place near you.
Andrew Decker 29:29
Thank you very much. We appreciate it.
Gerry Goldstein 29:31
Thank you.
Andrew Herreth 29:34
That wraps up our interview with Jerry Goldstein. Andrew, wow! I mean, that guy is something else. I mean, he will forget more than I will ever know. You know what I mean? He forgot more in that
Andrew Decker 29:47
interview than I will ever know. That's
Andrew Herreth 29:49
right. That's right. And I mean, we're just on the 20-ninth floor of the Tower Building in his office, the very top floor, downtown San Antonio, overlooking Alamo Plaza. You know, just the imagery of that location is just so profound. When hearing him just kind of just take that interview and run with
Andrew Decker 30:10
it, right? Part of what they didn't, what we didn't get recorded was he played the bugle call that Santa Anna played from almost exactly where we were sitting, that let the men in the Alamo know there will be no quarter if you stay and fight. You will be put to death, and and all of them die.
Andrew Herreth 30:27
It's just unbelievable, and just really appreciative appreciative of mr. Goldstein's time. Really great stuff, and I think we've got some some more great content coming your way.
Andrew Decker 30:41
Exactly next time, the same afternoon that we interviewed Jerry, we also interviewed a friend of mine. I've known her for about five years, Michelle Ochoa. She's a public defender, so she has a very different dynamic, different ideas. But it was still highly informative and entertaining, and it was fun to be there with my friend at that point, and you will find Michelle in the interview next time.
Andrew Herreth 31:05
As always, thank you so much for joining us and and putting up with Andrew and Andrew as we kind of stumble through the early phases of our podcast. This is Andrew and Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense. Find us on Facebook, like us. We're on iTunes. Leave us a rating and review. Also, TexasCrimDefense.com. Our contact information is there. Feel free to reach out to us. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast or answer any questions you have about criminal defense in the state of Texas. Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time when we're interviewing Michelle Ochoa in episode number four.