Texas Prison Crimes Explained: Defending Contraband, Assault, and Cell Phone Charges Inside TDCJ | Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense
Can inmates be charged with new felonies while serving a prison sentence? Texas criminal defense attorneys Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker interview former State Counsel for Offenders attorney Jake Greenberg about prison crimes, contraband, consecutive sentencing, inmate rights, and defending cases inside TDCJ.
Texas Prison Crimes Explained: What Every Texas Criminal Defense Attorney Should Know About Defending Cases Inside TDCJ
By Andrew Herreth & Andrew Decker
Introduction
Most criminal defense attorneys spend their careers representing people before they go to prison.
Far fewer spend time defending people already serving prison sentences.
Yet every year, inmates inside the Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) are accused of committing new crimes while incarcerated. Those allegations can lead to entirely new felony prosecutions, lengthy consecutive prison sentences, and some of the most difficult jury trials a defense attorney will ever handle.
These aren't ordinary criminal cases.
The clients already have felony convictions.
The alleged offenses occur inside secure correctional facilities.
Most witnesses are correctional officers.
Many juries come from rural communities where the prison serves as one of the largest employers.
The criminal statutes governing these cases are often unique, and some eliminate legal protections that attorneys routinely rely upon in traditional criminal prosecutions.
In this episode of Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense, we sit down with attorney Jake Greenberg, who began his career with the State Counsel for Offenders, representing inmates accused of committing crimes while incarcerated. Jake offers a rare look inside one of the most specialized areas of Texas criminal defense, discussing prison culture, contraband prosecutions, inmate rights, consecutive sentencing, and practical advice for lawyers who unexpectedly find themselves appointed to one of these cases.
Whether you're a criminal defense attorney, law student, prosecutor, or someone with a loved one incarcerated in Texas, understanding how prison crimes are investigated and prosecuted provides valuable insight into a system that most people never see.
A Criminal Justice System Hidden from Public View
Most Texans know very little about what happens after a defendant is sentenced to prison.
The public sees the conviction.
The sentence is announced.
The inmate is transported to TDCJ.
From that point forward, the prison system largely operates outside public attention.
Inside prison, however, life continues.
Disputes occur.
Property changes hands.
Contraband enters facilities.
Relationships develop.
Conflicts escalate.
Unfortunately, new criminal allegations sometimes follow.
While many people assume prison discipline is handled entirely through internal sanctions, Texas law also permits prosecutors to file entirely new criminal cases for conduct occurring inside correctional facilities.
Those prosecutions often surprise both defendants and newer defense attorneys.
Jake explains that his practice involved representing individuals already serving felony sentences who suddenly found themselves facing additional felony charges stemming from alleged conduct inside prison.
What Is the State Counsel for Offenders?
Many attorneys are familiar with public defender offices.
Far fewer have heard of the State Counsel for Offenders (SCFO).
The SCFO is a specialized office providing legal representation to incarcerated individuals in several contexts, including criminal prosecutions arising from conduct inside Texas prisons and certain civil commitment proceedings.
For a young lawyer interested in criminal defense, Jake described the position as a true trial-by-fire experience.
Instead of beginning with misdemeanor theft cases or routine DWIs, he immediately began representing incarcerated clients accused of committing new felonies while serving existing prison sentences.
Those clients often presented extraordinary challenges.
Many already had lengthy criminal histories.
Many suffered from mental illness.
Some had multiple violent felony convictions.
Nearly all faced an uphill battle before a jury.
Yet those clients still deserved competent legal representation.
For Jake, the experience became an intensive education in trial practice, client counseling, investigation, and empathy that continues influencing his practice today.
Why Prison Cases Are So Different
Representing someone accused of committing a crime inside prison differs dramatically from representing someone arrested on the street.
Consider the environment.
Every movement inside prison is monitored.
Correctional officers document incidents.
Security cameras may record events.
Witnesses often include prison employees.
The alleged offense occurs inside a secure government institution rather than a public location.
Even jury selection presents unique challenges.
Jake points out that prison crime cases are frequently tried in smaller Texas counties where correctional facilities serve as major employers. That reality means jurors often have family members or close friends employed by TDCJ, creating challenges unfamiliar to attorneys practicing in larger metropolitan areas.
Although every juror promises impartiality, defense counsel must carefully evaluate attitudes toward prison security, inmate credibility, and law enforcement during voir dire.
What Crimes Can Someone Commit Inside Prison?
Many people assume inmates are simply punished administratively when rules are broken.
That's only partially true.
Texas prisons maintain an internal disciplinary system addressing institutional violations.
Depending upon the conduct, inmates may lose privileges, lose good-time credit, receive housing restrictions, or experience changes in custody classification.
However, certain conduct may also result in entirely new criminal prosecutions.
Jake explains that common prison-related offenses include:
Assault on correctional officers
Harassment of a public servant
Possession of drugs
Possession of deadly weapons
Escape or attempted escape
Possession of prohibited items
Cell phone and electronic device offenses
These cases often proceed just like criminal prosecutions outside prison, except the consequences can be even more severe because defendants are already serving existing prison sentences.
The Surprisingly Broad Texas Contraband Statute
One of the most fascinating portions of the interview concerns Texas Penal Code § 38.11, governing prohibited substances and items inside correctional facilities.
Most people naturally think of contraband as:
homemade knives,
narcotics,
or firearms.
Texas law goes much further.
According to Jake, the statute criminalizes possession of:
controlled substances,
dangerous drugs,
deadly weapons,
wireless communication devices,
SIM cards,
and even components necessary to operate a cell phone.
That means an inmate possessing nothing more than a phone charger or SIM card may face a third-degree felony prosecution.
For attorneys unfamiliar with prison litigation, that can be startling.
Outside prison, possessing a phone charger is entirely unremarkable.
Inside prison, the same object may trigger a felony indictment.
One of the Biggest Differences: No Mental State Requirement
Perhaps the most surprising legal issue discussed during the interview involves the statute's mental-state requirement—or lack thereof.
In most criminal prosecutions, prosecutors must prove that a defendant acted intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence.
Many prison contraband prosecutions operate differently.
Jake explains that Section 38.11 focuses primarily on whether the defendant exercised care, custody, control, or management over the prohibited item.
That distinction dramatically changes how these cases are defended.
He provides a hypothetical example:
Imagine an inmate assigned to clean a prison walkway.
While collecting discarded clothing, the inmate unknowingly picks up a shirt.
Hidden inside that shirt is a homemade knife or controlled substance.
Under the statute, the inmate may suddenly face a felony prosecution despite having no intention of possessing contraband.
Whether that outcome represents good public policy remains subject to debate.
From a defense perspective, however, attorneys must recognize that prison contraband cases often involve statutory frameworks unlike those encountered in ordinary possession prosecutions.
Consecutive Sentences Can Change Everything
Perhaps no aspect of prison prosecutions shocks defense attorneys more than Texas's mandatory stacking provisions.
Outside prison, judges frequently possess discretion regarding whether sentences run concurrently or consecutively.
Inside prison, that discretion may disappear.
Jake discusses Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Article 42.08(b), which generally requires sentences for offenses committed while an inmate is serving a prison sentence to begin only after completion of the original sentence.
In practical terms, a defendant serving five years who receives an additional three-year sentence for a prison offense may serve eight years, not five.
For inmates already serving lengthy sentences, these additional stacked punishments can become extraordinarily significant.
Defense attorneys must therefore evaluate prison prosecutions with the same seriousness as any other felony case.
A plea that appears modest on paper may dramatically extend a client's incarceration because of mandatory consecutive sentencing provisions.
How Contraband Actually Gets Into Texas Prisons
One of the questions many people have after hearing about cell phone and contraband prosecutions is simple:
How does any of this get inside a prison in the first place?
Hollywood has conditioned us to picture elaborate escape tunnels, corrupt guards carrying duffel bags of contraband, or dramatic prison breaks. The reality is usually far less glamorous—and often far more creative.
During the interview, Jake was understandably careful not to discuss specific security methods or investigative techniques. But he explained an important reality that every defense attorney should appreciate:
No correctional facility is ever a completely closed system.
Every day, people move in and out of prison facilities.
Correctional officers report for work.
Medical staff enter and leave.
Maintenance crews perform repairs.
Attorneys meet with clients.
Contractors deliver supplies.
Visitors arrive.
Mail is processed.
Food is transported.
Whenever people and property move through a system, opportunities for contraband exist.
Jake explained that individuals determined to introduce prohibited items into prison frequently develop surprisingly creative methods. Some techniques eventually become so well known that they appear in television shows and movies because writers consult people familiar with correctional institutions.
More recently, technology has added another layer of complexity. During the discussion, Andrew Herreth referenced reports of drones allegedly being used to drop contraband into correctional facilities, while Jake noted that attorneys had already begun discussing drone-related prison cases within professional defense groups.
For criminal defense lawyers, however, the method by which contraband entered the prison is often less important than whether the State can prove the defendant knowingly exercised control over it—or whether the statute even requires that showing.
Prison Life Is Different Than Most People Imagine
Most people's understanding of prison comes from television dramas or movies.
Some portray prison as constant violence.
Others romanticize prison culture.
The truth is usually somewhere in between.
Jake described Texas prisons as difficult environments where even inmates attempting to avoid conflict cannot always do so.
Unlike the outside world, incarcerated individuals have little control over their surroundings.
They cannot simply walk away from someone causing problems.
They cannot change apartments.
They cannot decide who sleeps nearby.
A disagreement over something as small as where someone sits or which bunk they occupy may escalate quickly.
Compounding those tensions are environmental conditions.
As Andrew Herreth pointed out during the interview, many Texas prison units still lack air conditioning in general housing areas. During Texas summers, inmates may spend weeks living in extreme heat, a factor that naturally increases stress and frustration. Jake confirmed that climate-controlled housing is generally reserved for specialized medical or mental-health units.
While prison staff work under difficult conditions as well, defense attorneys should recognize that the environment itself often influences behavior in ways jurors who have never visited a correctional facility may struggle to appreciate.
Understanding Prison Culture Matters
One of the more entertaining portions of the interview involved prison slang.
When Jake first joined the State Counsel for Offenders, supervisors handed him a glossary explaining terminology commonly used by inmates.
Without that orientation, many client conversations would have made little sense.
For example:
A "kite" is simply a written message or letter passed between inmates or directed to prison officials. The term is so common inside correctional settings that Andrew Herreth noted some Texas courts even refer to inmate correspondence as "kites."
Jake also recalled learning the colorful term "Ninja Turtles," allegedly referring to heavily padded correctional officers assigned to respond to dangerous situations because their protective gear resembles a turtle shell. Whether universally used or not, the story illustrates an important point: prison culture has developed its own language, customs, and social norms.
For defense attorneys, understanding that vocabulary can dramatically improve client communication and help avoid misunderstandings during case preparation.
A Miranda Rule Many Criminal Defense Attorneys Don't Know
Perhaps the single most valuable legal discussion during the episode concerns a case that many criminal defense attorneys have never encountered.
Ordinarily, Miranda warnings are required only when a suspect is subjected to custodial interrogation.
Prison obviously presents a unique complication.
An inmate is always "in custody."
Yet prisons also operate through strict rules requiring inmates to obey correctional officers.
Jake explained that inmates who refuse to answer certain questions from prison staff may face internal disciplinary sanctions.
Because inmates are compelled to respond in situations where free citizens ordinarily could remain silent, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals recognized an important constitutional protection in Lykins v. State, 784 S.W.2d 32 (Tex. Crim. App. 1990).
As Jake summarized, when a correctional officer questions an inmate under circumstances where the inmate is effectively compelled to answer or face punishment, resulting statements may be inadmissible because the rationale underlying Miranda changes inside prison.
For attorneys appointed to defend prison crimes, this case deserves immediate attention.
Too often, lawyers assume ordinary Miranda analysis applies without modification.
Prison prosecutions require a different framework.
Failure to recognize that distinction could mean overlooking a viable suppression issue.
Mandatory Consecutive Sentences Raise the Stakes
Earlier we discussed Article 42.08(b) and the mandatory stacking of many prison sentences.
The practical impact cannot be overstated.
Jake described defendants who accepted what appeared to be relatively modest plea offers only to discover those sentences would not begin until completion of their existing prison terms.
That reality fundamentally changes plea negotiations.
For example:
A two-year sentence imposed concurrently with an existing sentence may have little practical effect.
The same two-year sentence imposed consecutively means two additional years in prison.
Defense attorneys must therefore evaluate these cases through a completely different lens than ordinary felony prosecutions.
Escape Cases Present Their Own Unique Issues
Jake also highlighted another appellate decision every attorney handling prison crimes should know:
Musgrove v. State, 425 S.W.3d 601 (Tex. App.—Houston).
He explained the principle this way:
One element of an escape prosecution is proving the defendant was lawfully in custody.
Because the underlying conviction is already an essential element of the offense, that same conviction generally cannot also be used to enhance punishment for the escape charge.
In other words, the State should not receive a "double benefit" from relying on the same prior conviction both to establish the offense and to increase punishment.
Jake noted that this authority proved useful when negotiating with the Special Prosecution Unit.
For attorneys unfamiliar with prison litigation, this illustrates an important lesson:
Even in highly specialized practice areas, appellate decisions often create meaningful defenses.
Lessons That Extend Beyond Prison Cases
Although much of the interview focused on prison law, one of the most valuable discussions had nothing to do with statutes.
Jake reflected on how representing incarcerated individuals fundamentally changed him as a lawyer.
Working daily with clients serving lengthy prison sentences forced him to develop empathy.
Many clients believed their futures were effectively over.
Some struggled with severe mental illness.
Others had lost hope entirely.
Representing those individuals required more than legal knowledge.
It required patience.
Compassion.
The ability to explain difficult realities without destroying trust.
Jake credits that experience with shaping his client communication skills and believes those lessons continue benefiting him in public defense today.
For newer attorneys, this is perhaps the interview's greatest takeaway.
Technical legal skills matter.
Trial skills matter.
But clients remember how their lawyer treated them.
Building a Career Through Niche Experience
One theme repeated throughout the conversation is that unusual assignments often become career-defining opportunities.
Many young lawyers hesitate to accept specialized appointments because they fear lacking experience.
Jake embraced one of the most difficult practice areas in criminal defense.
That decision gave him:
courtroom experience,
familiarity with prison litigation,
exposure to complex statutory interpretation,
relationships with investigators,
and a level of subject-matter expertise few attorneys possess.
His advice is simple:
A niche practice often becomes a lawyer's greatest professional asset.
By becoming one of relatively few attorneys knowledgeable about prison prosecutions, Jake developed expertise that colleagues continue seeking years later.
Final Thoughts
Prison crime cases rarely receive public attention.
Most criminal defense lawyers encounter only a handful during their careers.
Yet the consequences can be enormous.
Mandatory consecutive sentences.
Specialized statutes.
Unique constitutional issues.
Rural jury pools.
Correctional officer witnesses.
Institutional politics.
Together, these factors create one of the most challenging environments in Texas criminal defense.
Our conversation with Jake Greenberg reminds us that every defendant—whether awaiting trial in county jail or serving a decades-long sentence inside TDCJ—is still entitled to effective legal representation and the protections guaranteed by the Constitution.
For attorneys, these cases underscore the importance of mastering unfamiliar statutes, researching specialized case law, and never assuming that the rules governing ordinary criminal prosecutions apply unchanged inside prison walls.
For the public, they provide a rare glimpse into a part of the criminal justice system that is largely hidden from view—but no less important.
Key Takeaways
Inmates can be prosecuted for entirely new felony offenses committed while incarcerated.
Texas Penal Code § 38.11 criminalizes possession of numerous items inside correctional facilities, including cell phones, SIM cards, chargers, drugs, and weapons.
Many prison offenses carry mandatory consecutive sentences under Article 42.08(b), dramatically increasing punishment.
Lykins v. State provides important Miranda protections unique to incarcerated individuals questioned by correctional officers.
Musgrove v. State addresses improper sentence enhancement in certain escape prosecutions.
Understanding prison culture and terminology can improve attorney-client communication.
Empathy and effective communication are as valuable as legal knowledge when representing incarcerated clients.
"Everyone's going to remember who you are. Don't be an asshole."
Jake credits this advice from one of his law professors as the best professional guidance he ever received, emphasizing that successful negotiations and long-term professional relationships begin with treating people respectfully.
You can contact Jake on TikTok: @BetterTakeJake or by email at bettertakejake@gmail.com
Andrew Herreth 0:05
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Andrew and Andrew on Texas criminal defense. My name is Andrew Herreth, and as always, joining me is the ever excited Andrew Decker. Totally not distracted right now, and completely focused on our podcast episode, not right, mr. Decker.
Andrew Decker 0:24
Of course, all I focus on is this podcast. In fact, if it weren't for me, it wouldn't even exist. Hey,
Andrew Herreth 0:29
wait a second. That's uh, that's so that's so true. That's so true. You are the heart and soul of our podcast, my friend.
Andrew Decker 0:38
Well, but and I think everybody knows it, but you're but you're the good looks of the podcast, and you have a face for radio, my friend.
Andrew Herreth 0:45
Stop it! Stop it! Making me blush. So okay, so we're we're it's mid July. It is boiling hot outside. Tell me what's new. What have you been up to?
Andrew Decker 1:02
Nothing. I've well been working and have several trials coming up, and gonna go down for another TCDLA event next week. So we're having to record early. So you know that's it's
Andrew Herreth 1:20
busy. I have nothing. I
Andrew Decker 1:21
have nothing. I've
Andrew Herreth 1:22
been I have been staying inside as much as possible. The good thing is, on the inside here where I'm at, I have air conditioning. Do you know where they don't have air conditioning, mr. Decker?
Andrew Decker 1:36
Uh, in the refugee camps,
Andrew Herreth 1:39
refugee camps, and also the prisons, which is our
Andrew Decker 1:42
oh the prisons awkward topic for today. Yeah, there it is.
Speaker 1 1:46
There it is. Jeez, I
Andrew Decker 1:48
knew that. I knew that was where you're going. I just wanted to like you know like play it a little bit.
Andrew Herreth 1:52
Totally knew that, right? And joining us today to discuss all things you know defending people in prison related is mr. Jake Greenberg. How are you, sir? Is Jake there? I'm doing
Jake Greenberg 2:07
great. Thank you for
Andrew Herreth 2:08
having me. There he is. Hey, man. Okay, so let's get started. Jake, you have done some work as like you know. Well, want to just give us a brief intro, like where where are you from? Why'd you get into criminal defense? And kind of just an overview of your of your career up to now.
Jake Greenberg 2:28
Yeah, absolutely. So I went to law school in St. Mary's back in 2019. It was when I graduated. Took the bar exam, got my results November 2019, and kind of left the country for a minute while before starting practicing, and happened to get back in the country around February, March of 2020. And it was kind of hard to find criminal defense work back then because of some global news occurring. But I found an office that was willing to take me out in Huntsville, Texas, it was State Council for Offenders. They do public defense for prison crimes, for civil commitment issues with people in prison. They have a whole office dedicated specifically to prison issues, and they were willing to show to be my first foray into criminal defense. I really wanted to be a public defender, so that was the best step to go, other than becoming a prosecutor first, I guess.
Andrew Herreth 3:27
Certainly. So, I mean, like, talk about trial by fire. I mean, these are the cases that like nobody really wants to take, right?
Jake Greenberg 3:34
Oh yeah, no. These are people that have been convicted of at least one other felony in the past, are currently serving time in that for that felony and are accused of another one while in custody. So, as you can imagine, our jury pool comes from wherever that prison was where it occurred, allegedly occurred, which means small town Texas. Everyone and their mothers related to a guard. Everything is recorded in prison. So, my clients had their back against their wall, the wall, and they were not in a particularly good position to defend themselves. So,
Andrew Decker 4:08
yeah, I wouldn't want to go to trial in a county like that, and I know some of those counties, obviously, on a good case. I cannot imagine trying to do one on a prison case.
Jake Greenberg 4:26
Yeah, well, thankfully, I mean, I guess regretfully because I really did want the trial experience and the you know the actual to be there and to to do the work. But the pandemic stopped a lot of in-person visits. It definitely stopped trials throughout the state of Texas, but I had quite a few cases that were set and ready to go. I just never got to see them all the way through.
Andrew Herreth 4:52
Yeah, I mean, and and that and that's because you know you were there during a pandemic, and so that you know put a damper on all of our trial experiences. But you know, probably weren't lacking for work though, right? Oh no. So what? So so your transition. Well, I guess we'll talk about your transition into the public defender's office. How your experience as the counsel for offenders office helped with that. But you know, what was the? I guess what was the transition from just regular, you know, new newly licensed attorney into representing people in prison?
Jake Greenberg 5:29
Yeah, that is a fantastic question. So my only previous criminal defense experience was a couple of months post bar interning for the Dallas Public Defender's Office, but going from that, you know, from dealing with misdemeanors, you know, DWI is the worst day of someone's life, to someone with multiple violent felony convictions who is, you know, facing additional jail time, prison time. It's, it's a, it's a bit of a shock. You know, you learn a lot about prison culture. You learn a lot about, like, you get. I was given a whole packet, a glossary of terms that might be used in prison. That like I needed to know, like what a kite was. So isn't that something
Andrew Decker 6:12
on a string that Benjamin Franklin used to establish that electricity is lightning?
Jake Greenberg 6:17
My clients were very well read, and they often incorporated American history into their their slang as a way to you know differentiate themselves.
Andrew Herreth 6:26
So I mean, so all they have to do is read.
Jake Greenberg 6:28
But no one ever talks about the Franklins.
Andrew Decker 6:32
So my question is, what is a kite in prison? A kite. That's a legitimate question.
Jake Greenberg 6:36
It's just it's just a letter. It's just a letter. Like sometimes they'll they'll use like strings to to sling them from cell to cell, but yeah, it's it's essentially just a letter. Like if you need an ombudsman, like you've got you've got an issue, a civil issue that that you need like a prison official to look at, you you'd say I'm going to send them a kite telling them that that I'm not given being given the proper dietary lunch, like it can be anything from legitimate to illegitimate.
Andrew Herreth 7:06
You know that's funny because in the one of the counties I practice in, that's what the courts call you know a letter from the from the inmates to the courts. You know, so so that that's I wonder if that is just from you know, from from some of the inmates coming from TDC, and then the name just kind of caught on with the courts.
Jake Greenberg 7:30
I would not be surprised at all.
Andrew Herreth 7:32
Yeah, yeah, man, that's interesting. Yeah, and and the fact they gave you a whole list of of these things is pretty fascinating.
Jake Greenberg 7:41
The one that caught my mind caught my attention was called was a Ninja Turtles, and I do not believe like this this whole list. Half of it read like a 2020 special talking about the new drug your kids may be doing that like no kid is actually doing, like because Ninja Turtles is supposedly what they called the four-man like riot squad that comes in if someone's got like a weapon in their cell and is acting you know threatening because they wear these giant padded suits essentially they've got you know stuff on their back that makes it look like you know protections on their back that makes it look like you know they're a turtle and a half shell,
Andrew Herreth 8:22
right?
Jake Greenberg 8:24
So little things like that that I still can't imagine anyone actually used. But like you think about it, and some of those clients were '80s kids at one point, so now they're in there and they see some guards that look like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. So they started. I can't speak to that's authentic, but it was in the packet. It
Andrew Herreth 8:42
does sound like a bit like you know a parent or something trying to use new slang, and the kids are like nobody says on fleek or fam or anything like that, right? Exactly. Yeah, that's that's really interesting.
Andrew Decker 8:58
But I know in the next few weeks I plan on seeing the new Ninja Turtle movie, so I will not. So that's all you're going to be thinking about, right? Yeah,
Jake Greenberg 9:07
so now you can put brunch up on your prison flank.
Speaker 1 9:10
Huh?
Andrew Herreth 9:11
Yeah, that's funny, man. So what kind of like? So somebody's somebody's in custody. They're incarcerated. They're serving out of sentence. Like, what's the what's the general like cases that that that somebody can pick up?
Speaker 1 9:25
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Decker 9:26
What cases can you actually pick up in prison?
Jake Greenberg 9:28
So obviously, I didn't deal with any DWIs or anything like that. Right. But what I was dealing with was a lot of assaults. There are harassment of public servant cases where a client will allegedly spit on a correctional officer, and that becomes a felony. There are, you know, of course, drug cases, weapons cases. It's illegal to have a deadly weapon in a prison, and we do have cell phone cases, and. There's also escapes and attempted escapes, but I really like to focus on the possession cases because those are kind of interesting the way TDCJ handles them.
Andrew Herreth 10:08
Well, tell us about that.
Jake Greenberg 10:10
Yeah, yeah, you can get so in prison. You have they have many ways to punish you. They can punish you with the disciplinary, which can involve anything from your line class being reduced, meaning that you have less privileges and you're less able to take classes, to less good time, so you get out later. But you can also be punished, of course, criminally. And when we're dealing with Texas Penal Code 3811, that deals with prohibited substances and items in a correctional facility. Now, it makes it a crime to simply possess controlled substance, dangerous drug, deadly weapon, or any component used for the ongoing functioning of a wireless communication device or cell phone. So having a SIM card or a cell phone charger is now a third a third degree felony, which is you know two to 10, but if you're one of my clients, you've already got a prior felony, so it's either two to 10. It's not two to 20. It's it's two to 20, or possibly 20-five to 90-nine. So that those are issues.
Andrew Herreth 11:15
Yeah.
Jake Greenberg 11:16
And the statute itself, the reason they charge it under that instead of just like a simple possession statute that we we see on the streets, is because there's no mental state requirement for
Speaker 1 11:28
3811.
Jake Greenberg 11:29
Ah, there's no intentional or knowingly possessing. It's just having care, custody, control, or management over the item. So if you go to prison and your your job is to clean the walkway, and you're cleaning clean it up. You pick up a shirt. A guard grabs your arm, and tucked inside that shirt is a little bit of drugs or a tiny shiv. You're now violating the law.
Andrew Herreth 11:54
Golly, it's such a low bar, and it seems like the assumption is like, who cares, right? I mean, that's just kind of the feeling that I'm just hearing is is they're already incarcerated. Who cares? Kind of.
Jake Greenberg 12:08
That's how it feels when you read these statutes.
Andrew Herreth 12:11
Yeah.
Jake Greenberg 12:11
And the real kicker is, and I think we're going to talk about this a little later, but I've I get passionate about this stuff, so I love talking about it. Thank you for having me on to to do this. Is that 42? What what is the statute? 42.08b says crimes committed in prison in TDCJ custody. If you're serving a sentence, they must be stacked, and it must be that that sentence will not be completed until you discharge your original sentence. So when someone's signing on for three years, they're signing on for three additional years.
Andrew Herreth 12:49
Yeah, that was that was a I had a learning curve. I handled a case. It was an assault public servant while this. I mean, he was a kid out of Houston in custody and gets charged with assault and and that was like oh man it has to be stacked it was kind of it was it was just kind of heartbreaking you know like he was almost gonna get out and go home and I mean it's clear as day on the video there was like very little that we could do and I and I really didn't find that the special prosecution unit was like the the easiest to work with at all.
Jake Greenberg 13:28
Yeah, which kind of we have something special if you're going to talk to those people because they get very you know you see how rotely a regular prosecutor will handle a regular misdemeanor or a regular felony. Even these people, they have it down to a science sometimes. You know,
Andrew Herreth 13:48
yeah.
Jake Greenberg 13:49
Like it might as well be dealing with federal sentencing guidelines.
Andrew Decker 13:54
Yeah, yeah, exactly right. And like the federal sentencing guidelines, it is. there is no wiggle. It is this is it. This is you picked up the shirt. It had a little bit. It had a SIM card in it, and and I guess the reason that it's so low of a bar is that no one in in prison is going to say, well, I I knew that there was something in there. Well, but that's also, if I'm playing devil's advocate, it's how I would make a transfer. I'd be like, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna drop the shirt by the trash can. You pick it up, and then you carry it to the guy in your pod.
Jake Greenberg 14:37
No, I mean, you know, it all makes perfect sense, and it's tragic.
Andrew Herreth 14:42
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems like a very like as as a legislator or whatever trying to write laws on this. It does seem I don't know. It seems pretty difficult to to not. To kind of like piecemeal, like what, like punish those who actually need to get punished, and not just pile on to somebody who's, you know, kicking them when the when they're down, kind of deal, you know.
Jake Greenberg 15:10
Right. And when you're talking about you know the the possession statute, it charges drugs, weapons, and cell phone SIM cards is the same thing. You know, there's a difference between like having a weapon maybe to defend yourself that I can understand, or you know having drugs like that. That's you know you're not supposed to have drugs. You're there to get better. Like that's that that legal theory, and having a cell phone because you want to communicate with your loved ones, like or potentially have access to the internet so you can like I don't know. It it hits me in the emotional core sometimes. Well,
Andrew Herreth 15:44
yeah, yeah. They're not, but they're not the so it treats them all the same, but they're not the same. And
Jake Greenberg 15:50
exactly,
Andrew Herreth 15:50
and that and and right. And it and it like you said earlier, it completely takes away, you know, like the mens rea, or or you can't really take take into their intention into effect, right? Somebody who's possessing a knife, who is just nothing but a troublemaker and just aggressive, is different than somebody who's like never had an issue but has one for protection, right? Yeah, that's that is that's that's that that's even worse than the federal guidelines, right? At least you would have some argument for downward departure.
Andrew Decker 16:25
Downward variants.
Andrew Herreth 16:27
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so no, no concurrence, no cases, no new cases can run concurrent to the charge for which you're there, which is incredible to me. This seems like it seems like one judge somewhere, like the legislature was just like singling out, like okay, we're not going to be letting this this judge have the discretion, or we're not going to let the judicial branch have the discretion on you know how they want to treat this particular case. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Like the reasoning behind the no concurrent cases,
Jake Greenberg 17:06
I mean, everyone has to get out at some point. We can't just, as a society, put people away forever and not think about it. They love to do that
Andrew Herreth 17:16
with your civil commitments.
Jake Greenberg 17:18
They, oh my God, you're not kidding. No, the civil
Speaker 1 17:21
community.
Jake Greenberg 17:22
Oh wow! Like I, I never worked in the civil section, but I have heard war stories from the people that have. I couldn't decide whether to say war or horror story, but they're
Speaker 1 17:32
yeah,
Jake Greenberg 17:33
just terrible. Um. So oh my god, that that that is a life sentence in a civil setting.
Andrew Herreth 17:40
It is. It is an. It is shocking to me, and I kind of feel the same way about using priors when talking about new cases. But it's shocking to me that when we say people have like served their or paid their debt to society, that they never have. They they never have, right? And and if we wanted these people to stay in in custody for life, we should have sentenced them to life from the beginning. Like that, it it makes no sense to me why we now have a situation where we're locking away people for life, like getting rid of their rights simply because we're trying to what prevent something from happening, like you're not going to be able to prevent everything from happening. You know, it's kind of it reminds me of Minority Report with Tom Cruise. Like it's just kind of a faulty system that erodes not just their rights, but I think everybody's rights. But I am preaching, and we all know that's Andrew Decker's job. So we'll stick to the itinerary.
Andrew Decker 18:44
So, so, so interestingly, I in this year, this month's National Criminal Defense Lawyers Magazine is a article, several articles on mass incarceration in the United States, and they talk about that it could take, if we stopped, if we slowed down the number of people going into prison, it could still take 50 to 70-five years for us to stop having mass incarcerations, partly because of the length of sentences that people are serving.
Andrew Herreth 19:17
Yeah,
Speaker 1 19:18
yep.
Andrew Decker 19:19
I mean, so so adding adding another 10 to some, you know, Mister Herreth and I had a guy that got what 45 twice, and they were stacked. And if that's the case, and then he picks up anything else that stacked on top of the, so it'd be at the back end of the second stack. I mean, he's not
Jake Greenberg 19:45
exactly.
Andrew Decker 19:46
And you kind of go, what freaking difference does it make?
Jake Greenberg 19:52
And that's I kind of saw some of that in prism. I mean, without going into specifics, some of these guys, you know, were serving life. What's another jury trial with them? It's a field trip.
Speaker 1 20:02
It's a chance
Jake Greenberg 20:04
for them to get out to be the center of attention for a while, to potentially see their family not behind bars. You know, they're they're wearing a suit, they dress up. Like, what do they care if they're caught with a cell phone or doing something much, much, much worse, like you know, a perpetual matter eliminates an incentive not to commit crimes. Essentially, which is, I'm told, a reason we have laws.
Andrew Herreth 20:32
One of them, anyways. I mean,
Jake Greenberg 20:34
or at least the reason we have prisons.
Andrew Herreth 20:36
There, there's no, yeah, there are, but I mean, I think everybody on this call knows, like, our criminal justice system is deterrence is like a, it's an afterthought. You know, like it's not. They'll say that you know the legislature will say this is the reason for it, but no, it's it's just straight up punishment. You know, if rehabilitation was a thing, we'd have a completely different system. If deterrence was a thing, you know we would have a completely different system. But it is what it is. Let's go back to
Andrew Decker 21:09
itinerary. So,
Andrew Herreth 21:10
or we'll be here all day.
Andrew Decker 21:13
I know. Well, and and and honestly, Jake, I am now dumbfounded. Right. So. part part of what we said was one of the questions that we that we told you we were going to ask is, you know, like I was just watching a show on I think Netflix Mayor of I can't remember the name of the city. It's in Michigan where basically it's it's kind of like Huntsville here, and the mayor has some say in how things are done in the jail, which doesn't make any sense to me. But it's a TV show. I know I'm watching a TV show about law enforcement, and Andy hates that. But in the show, they're playing with a tennis ball on the on the grounds, and the tennis ball is is the is the envelope. envelope, right? So as stuff is easily passed, I mean, you you've talked about cell phones, chargers, Sims cards. That blows my mind. So are they really, are they really there as much as,
Jake Greenberg 22:17
I mean,
Andrew Decker 22:17
TV says they are.
Jake Greenberg 22:19
People get creative. You know, I can't talk about specifics, obviously, but I can say that if you're dealing with a closed system like a prison, it is never completely closed. You have things flowing in, you have things coming out. You know, whether it's guards, inmates, friends, inmates, family, whether it's nurses, whether it's custodians or outside kitchens, you know, if if someone wants something, they can find a way to get it. A lot of the times, and that's what you know. I mean, I can't speak too much about methods I've seen, but the tennis ball thing, I mean, I guarantee you, someone's thought of that, and I guarantee I would almost guarantee you that that idea came from someone like from a writer who did their research.
Andrew Decker 23:12
Yeah, from a case file somewhere.
Jake Greenberg 23:13
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, I just want to be careful about getting into too much about security or anything like that, but yeah, yeah. Well, and
Andrew Herreth 23:24
as as like as technology progresses, I think we're going to see both. You know, obviously, people are going to adopt like the the most technologically advanced way to get in, like drones. I think there was a story in the news about drones being used to drop contraband over walls, and then I actually had
Jake Greenberg 23:39
someone through TDCLA's Facebook group, reach out to me about a drone case that they had.
Andrew Herreth 23:45
Yeah. See, so it's the future is now, but but also going back to like these more you know analog methods. I'm I'm sure you know as as they start to turn their attention to more technologically advanced ways, you know people, I'm sure, going to go back to the tried and true methods, and hopefully that you know the authorities-not hopefully, but they would hope that the authorities would be distracted from that. So we've all seen you know movies and and pop culture references that take place in prison or refer to prisons. You know, is what's life like in a Texas prison? Is it as volatile and dangerous as they say? You know, what are the conditions like in general?
Jake Greenberg 24:37
Thankfully, I only served a year in Huntsville, and then I got out and went back to Dallas to work. Sorry, so sorry. I don't know dealing behind the bars. I will say that thing. You know, as you said, alluded to earlier, air conditioning isn't in all the units. It's mostly reserved for the mental health units where they're on like lit. Or things that require you to not be overheated in order to continue living that sort of stuff, but it sounds like a hot, miserable place where even keeping to yourself isn't always an option.
Andrew Herreth 25:15
Yeah,
Jake Greenberg 25:16
you know, you just get caught up in someone trying to like, you know, for someone may have beef with you for whatever reason. Maybe you took their bunk and didn't know it was there.
Andrew Herreth 25:28
Right
Jake Greenberg 25:29
things, and I-I mean, it's-it can be a very violent, dangerous place.
Andrew Herreth 25:34
So any, yeah, I mean, I would think just okay. It's nothing like prison, but I've been to summer camp, right? And when you're sharing like a dormitory or a bunk room with any number of guys, like one of them has a bad day, and you just can't you can't tell how that's going to affect you or like affect the group in whole or or whatever. And and man, I can't you know I can't imagine on some of these Texas summers in South Texas, especially no AC. It's hot. People are angry or scared or whatever, and and it just is you know constantly at a boiling point or at a topping point. I guess.
Jake Greenberg 26:18
Absolutely. Something I heard a guard say once is, he he was telling me like I I was telling him to kind of be careful, and he said, "Don't worry, I'm not static, meaning he doesn't set off the other inmates. But
Andrew Herreth 26:32
oh wow, that tells me
Jake Greenberg 26:33
there are guards that you know people you know aren't particularly good, and they tend to cause problems just by being there.
Andrew Herreth 26:43
Yeah,
Jake Greenberg 26:44
but and that's one thing I want to say to like there are two things I want to get out to people who are taking TDC crime cases because I found the resources for this sort of stuff is low. Like there there isn't a lot of people that talk about the crime the TDCJ specific issues. So if I could have just like a platform for a moment, just to talk about two two case law issues I wanted I wanted to discuss.
Andrew Herreth 27:07
Please, please
Jake Greenberg 27:08
do. So there's a case out of Texas Criminal Appeals Court. It's called Lycans v. State 784 S W 2d 32 and this has to do with a constitutional protection that you have in prison that you actually don't have elsewhere, because you know in prison you don't have the right to privacy, and a guard can ask you to search or to strip search for practically any reason or no reason at all, so long as it isn't just absolutely harassing. I believe is what the courts have said, but if you are an inmate in TDCJ and a guard asks you a question, you are compelled to answer. If not, you can be subject to a TDCJ internal disciplinary proceeding for like failure to respond to a guard's question. Because of this, you have an extra protection from Miranda. So, if a guard asks an inmate, you know, what are you doing, and they say hiding drugs, that statement could be inadmissible under this case because you are compelled to answer. It gets rid of the the the reasoning behind Miranda,
Speaker 2 28:23
right?
Jake Greenberg 28:24
So that's something that I feel like no one knows, and I did talk about stacking issues, so I did get to say the pieces that I wanted to.
Andrew Herreth 28:33
No, can you can you give us that citation one more time to this case?
Jake Greenberg 28:37
Sure thing. Likens L Y K I N S the state 784 eight four, SW 2d 32 and it's a 1990s case.
Andrew Herreth 28:51
That's great. That's good stuff. Good deal. Did you say there was two, or did you have another, or is that the?
Jake Greenberg 28:58
I've got one more actually.
Andrew Herreth 28:59
Good
Jake Greenberg 29:00
deal. So if you ever pick up a case for escape or attempted escape, part of the element of the offense for for escaping is that you are in custody, and that means that whatever you are in custody for is an essential element of the offense. So, your whatever you're in custody for cannot be used to enhance your felony or the new felony you pick up. Does that make sense? I mean, it's kind of a mouthful, but the way Westlaw puts it is the person's sentence cannot be enhanced by the same prior conviction that was used as an essential element of the charge defense, and that is Musgrove v. State 425 SW 3d 601 and that's a Court of Appeals Houston case. But it I've I found it worked well with the special prosecutor that I was dealing with.
Andrew Herreth 29:58
So one more time with that. Citation
Jake Greenberg 30:02
425 S w3 d6 01
Andrew Herreth 30:08
okay and I will we'll make sure that is on the case notes and Zucker just sent me a note that said he had to drop off real quick so he'll join us back again but we can keep rolling here
Jake Greenberg 30:21
perfect.
Andrew Herreth 30:23
Okay, so we mentioned earlier we're going to talk about like your transition now to public defender. So tell us like you know the best experience you got as working for the State Council for Offenders and how that now helps you in your current role.
Jake Greenberg 30:37
Oh, absolutely. The two best things that I got were, for lack of a better phrase, my bedside manner. When you are dealing with people that are hopeless, man, you get really empathetic really quickly. You you you're able to get onto their level. They see you as an authority, but you're still able to provide a calming guidance. And that was something I did not really like. You know, I was always, you know, an amiable person, but dealing with people whose lives they feel like are forfeit. I mean, yeah, you learn how to be an empathetic person real quick. Right. You also learn how to talk to people with mental health issues, which was something I never had to deal with before being a licensed attorney, but so
Andrew Herreth 31:26
yeah, I would imagine that's just like constant practice in being compassionate.
Jake Greenberg 31:31
Exactly, but you also learn how to handle the volume of cases. You learn how to work with investigators with the team. It was it was a really great experience.
Andrew Herreth 31:43
Yeah, and and you know, like not for nothing, but you know, it's not it's a job that not too many people volunteer for, right? I mean, we we have some very dedicated people in that office, but I've always found like you know doing the job that that is, you know, it's inherently hard and difficult, and and there's just not that many people willing to do it. Like there's always something to learn. Like you always get something out of it. Maybe even a little bit more than like you know, like something that you that you've wanted to do, right? I mean, it's obviously been great training ground for you. I'm sure you wouldn't have traded that experience for anything, right?
Jake Greenberg 32:27
Absolutely not. I mean, it's it was a very niche field, but I mean, a niche field is how you build a career. Like it's how do you you know
Andrew Herreth 32:37
yeah do do you find that in your current role, like people come to you asking, like, "Hey, you know, what what's the deal with like Brett? How do I how do I advise them on you know parole? What's it really like on the inside stuff like that?
Jake Greenberg 32:52
Yeah, whenever I see people asking questions like about TDC or just on like on a like list serve or any form of you know attorney board. I always try to make myself available, and I do get questions sometimes. Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't know about as much about parole as I should. But I met a very good parole attorney through TVCJ, and me and him keep in touch.
Andrew Herreth 33:19
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I imagine you'd just be a really great resource in general.
Jake Greenberg 33:25
Thank you. I'm the people who are
Andrew Herreth 33:27
going in.
Andrew Decker 33:28
Well, if nothing else, it becomes one of those things where you you now learn stuff that the rest of us just we just don't know. And and I would say that mr. Herreth and myself, and and most of us who work as criminal defense attorneys have a better idea. But if I have, you know, on a scale of one to 10, I have a the average person really has like a one, you know, no real experience or knowledge of what it's like to be in the penitentiary. mr. Herreth and I might have a
Speaker 1 34:00
three, yeah, side of action. of actually working, I'm
Jake Greenberg 34:14
sorry, you broke up a bit.
Andrew Herreth 34:16
Yeah, he's he's you're breaking up a lot, Becker. I think what he's saying is like aside from actually serving time in prison, you know, you act, you probably have, you know, more experience than I mean, obviously than your average attorney. So, and that that I think pays dividends
Jake Greenberg 34:33
secondhand.
Andrew Herreth 34:35
Oh yeah, right, right. At least at least for like you know having to sleep overnight there, you you you said like on your on your way in, well before we started recording, you you kind of told us that you know on your way into one of these prisons they wanted to you had to you had to sit through a dental appointment.
Jake Greenberg 34:56
Oh yeah, so because my my insurance goes through the state. Like only certain or went through the state, you know. I had to go through certain doctors, certain approved doctors, and sometimes they were in prisons. Like I got my first COVID test in the prison, and I went in for a dental appointment, and like we, me and the dentist, had a huge disagreement about like what what a cavity search was, so I just left.
Andrew Herreth 35:18
Yeah, it's hilarious. All right. Well, you know, this has been a great conversation, Jake. I I really appreciate you, and thanks for yeah, man. Thanks for introducing yourself to to Decker at at Rusty Duncan because that this is I think really going to be something interesting for our listeners. So before we wrap up, we do like to ask our our our guests, you know, three questions that you know just kind of lets us know who you are as a person, you know, not just an attorney. So first things first, what's your favorite band or musical artist?
Jake Greenberg 35:57
You know, I've been following this Houston rapper for a while. It's a it's a hard one to pronounce, but it's Toby Nwigwe.
Speaker 3 36:04
Okay,
Jake Greenberg 36:05
he's uh really awesome. He's been on Jimmy Kimmel before, but like I started listening to him in law school, and uh, ooh, he's got a good flow.
Andrew Herreth 36:15
Really, yeah. So um, we'll we'll put that in the in the show notes too, maybe some of our listeners will broaden their musical repertoire. All right. Well, what about your favorite book, or you know, one that you're reading now, or just one you recommend, or whatever? I
Jake Greenberg 36:34
mean, the one that I probably enjoy the most is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Right. I think it's just a delightfully funny book. I'm reading the. I'm halfway through the second one right now. I read the first one in law school, and I'm just kind of picking it back up. But one I'm constantly rereading is Never Split the Difference.
Andrew Herreth 36:55
Yeah,
Jake Greenberg 36:55
I cannot remember the author, but he's a FBI former hostage negotiator, and he talks about mirroring and different negotiation techniques that he found useful.
Andrew Herreth 37:08
He talks about mirroring and different techniques that he found useful.
Jake Greenberg 37:12
Yeah,
Andrew Herreth 37:13
I just mirrored you there. That would be Christopher Boss. Oh
Jake Greenberg 37:18
wow! And that's how effective that that strategy is. Is that no one notices?
Andrew Herreth 37:23
Never split the difference. I agree with you. I love that book. He's got a lot of really cool stories, and I have found it particularly useful. Some prosecutors think I'm just like I don't know, just dense or obstinate or whatever. I just keep asking them questions, and I've been called stubborn a number of times before, and and really what I'm doing is just taking these strategies and and trying to use them to get what I want, or to get something better, or to get something closer to like my ideal goal. And so, mirroring, looping, those are all things that I really try to do. I love that book. That's a great recommendation. and let's see. Decker's here. I think he's he's having some issues with his connection.
Andrew Decker 38:09
Yeah, but can you hear me?
Andrew Herreth 38:10
Yeah, yeah, perfect. Now,
Andrew Decker 38:12
all right. So, so what's the best piece of advice you've been given, or one that you think that you know you kind of live by?
Jake Greenberg 38:19
I mean, this is a podcast. Cursing's okay.
Andrew Decker 38:24
Yep. Yeah.
Jake Greenberg 38:26
My property teacher, my property law teacher, the last day, a professor, the last day of class. He said, "Everyone's gonna remember who you are. Don't be an asshole.
Andrew Herreth 38:37
Yep. Yeah. We've we've heard that one before.
Jake Greenberg 38:40
Every one of those negotiating techniques works 100 times better when the person you're working with wants to work with you.
Andrew Herreth 38:47
Yeah,
Jake Greenberg 38:48
I, you know, you don't get referrals from other people who did not like you. You don't like even if they're not in the same field. Like people are going to remember who you are. You never know who is going to come up in your life again. So be consistent about that.
Andrew Herreth 39:04
Yeah, it's very true. Great piece of advice. My all my property professor told me or taught us in school was to get paid up front, which is something I still struggle to to abide by. So that's great, man. Jake, thank you for joining us. How can our listeners, if they have questions for you, or just want to pick your brain about some cases or or whatever, how can they get a how can they get in touch with you?
Jake Greenberg 39:38
Well, my TikTok is, I guess, my most commonly used social media. I'm at Better Take Jake. My email address is also Better take@gmail.com If you want to send me any questions or whatever,
Andrew Herreth 39:55
good deal. And we'll include those on the show notes. So hopefully, people do have questions. They can reach out to you, and and this is be the first episode where somebody leaves us their TikTok handle. Oh yeah,
Andrew Decker 40:08
they got also. So so here's the real question, Jake. Yeah, how do how do people officially join the Andrew and Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense Fan Club?
Jake Greenberg 40:18
How do we officially join?
Andrew Decker 40:20
Yeah, yeah. How would somebody join the fan club?
Jake Greenberg 40:24
I assume you reach out to Andrew and Andrew. You have your friend reach out to Andrew and Andrew and corner them at Rusty Duncan. That's how it worked for me.
Andrew Decker 40:31
Fantastic. All right. Fair enough. No, that was yeah. It's always it was a lot of fun.
Jake Greenberg 40:37
It was a great time.
Andrew Herreth 40:39
The Deckard texted me. He was like, "We have a fan club, and I'm like, "What are you talking about? I mean, it was kind of so like people actually reached out to this. Good.
Jake Greenberg 40:48
He's an attorney in San Antonio. He runs his own practice. He he introduced me to y'all, and I've listened to so many of y'all's podcasts. So it's such a it's such a cool treat to talk to y'all.
Andrew Decker 40:59
Well, it's it's been a joy, and we're definitely, definitely going to get him on the show as well. Forreth too. I just wanted
Jake Greenberg 41:07
to plug his name.
Andrew Herreth 41:08
Yeah, no, we'll we'll absolutely have to have him on. You know, we try to get we we we're Andrew and I are both in Fort Worth area, and so a lot of our guests are from that area. But we we do try to bring in people from from you know all over the state, and that's why you know Rusty is such a good resource for us. We get to meet people you know from all over the country. So definitely would would love to expand our horizons there. My one last anecdote about TikTok. My intern that I currently have is encouraging me to get on TikTok and leave these like attorney informational like TikTok videos, and she showed me like what one of the attorneys who's doing this out of Nashville, and this is the reason she thought of me. But this guy looks like, I mean, he's got rings on each finger. He wears big gold, like big goals. You're talking about
Jake Greenberg 42:01
Kev's got you covered.
Andrew Herreth 42:03
Kev's got you covered exactly, and I'm like, this is this is who you saw that made you think of me. This is ridiculous. Like he looks like he's wearing a bad wig, and it's just outrageous. He wears like the brightest suit coats. But
Jake Greenberg 42:17
you know that's who a lot of our people wanted their clients.
Andrew Herreth 42:21
Man, I, I, it is not my vibe. But I was, I was, I didn't know how to take that. Anyways, we we will add you on TikTok, or I will, anyways, if I ever get on TikTok. Decker will have to explain what TikTok is.
Andrew Decker 42:36
Yeah, I don't even know what that is.
Jake Greenberg 42:39
Money on the table is what it is, Andrew.
Andrew Decker 42:42
Okay. All right.
Speaker 1 42:43
All right. Well, gentlemen, it
Andrew Decker 42:46
has been a pleasure.
Jake Greenberg 42:48
No, this was fun.
Andrew Decker 42:50
It. We. You can find us on Facebook or Twitter. We don't do the TikTok. So for Andrew Herreth, I'm Andrew Decker, and for Andrew Decker, I am Andrew Herreth. Y'all be y'all be good.
Andrew Herreth 43:09
Wait for it.