Examining Trials in Texas: Strategy, Pressure, and Practical Use
Examining Trials in Texas: Strategy, Pressure, and Practical Use
In this episode of Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense, Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker reunite after a brief hiatus to dive into one of the more underused procedural tools in Texas criminal defense practice: the examining trial.
The Andrews discuss when examining trials actually make strategic sense, why they are rarely used in larger counties, and how they can become powerful leverage tools in rural jurisdictions — especially in felony drug cases where lab results delay indictments.
Topics covered include:
What an examining trial is under Texas law
The low probable cause burden prosecutors must meet
Why examining trials often disappear after indictment
How defense lawyers can use them to pressure prosecutors
Discovery advantages before indictment
Bond considerations and possible release outcomes
Risks of discharge and later re-arrest
Differences between Harris County and smaller rural counties
Practical strategy considerations for in-custody clients
Whether examining trials are worth filing in modern practice
The episode also turns into a broader conversation about the increasing role of AI tools like Lexis AI and ChatGPT in criminal defense work, including:
How attorneys are using AI for legal research and brainstorming
Ethical and practical concerns surrounding AI-generated legal work
Why younger lawyers may need to embrace these tools to stay competitive
Concerns about future malpractice and grievance claims involving AI
Along the way, the Andrews reflect on why the podcast matters, how listeners are using episodes to prepare for trial, and why real-world conversations between practicing defense attorneys continue to resonate with lawyers across Texas.
Key Takeaways
Examining trials remain a viable but underutilized defense tool
Filing for one can force prosecutors to move cases faster
They may create opportunities for early discovery and bond relief
Timing and jurisdiction matter enormously
AI is rapidly changing the practice of criminal defense law
Mentioned in This Episode
Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Articles 16.01, 15.17, and 16.17
Jeff Shearer’s examining trial strategy
Lexis AI and Westlaw AI
Rusty Duncan Advanced Criminal Law Course
Train the Trainers CLE Program
Connect With Us
Follow Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense for practical discussions, war stories, and real-world strategy from two Texas criminal defense attorneys actively practicing in the trenches.
Website: TexasCrimDefense.com
Facebook: Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense
Have a topic suggestion or a crazy courtroom story? Reach out — you might end up on the show.
Andrew Herreth 0:05
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Andrew and Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense. My name is Andrew Herreth, and at long last, we are reunited. One of my best friends in the entire world,
Andrew Decker 0:20
mr. Andrew. dun
Andrew Herreth 0:23
dun dun, man. It's so good to hear your voice.
Andrew Decker 0:25
It's good to hear yours. It's good to hear you're sorry. You have a little bit of a head cold.
Andrew Herreth 0:29
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 0:30
so we're trying out new devices. We, you know, occasionally we.. I don't know if this is another episode. It's almost like a fresh start.
Andrew Decker 0:38
I know
Andrew Decker 0:38
new technology, new ways of recording, new ways of getting information about what we're talking about. So it's been what we've missed almost a month, maybe a month and a half of recordings,
Andrew Herreth 0:55
and a while
Andrew Decker 0:56
it's been a while, and we want to get back at it, but part of, part of what got me back, that was like, Andy, we, we really need to do this, just so our listeners know, I've had one listener who said that she listens to us to get almost like a hype video, right, like when she, when she's, when she's supposed to be gearing for trial, she listens to us as a way to kind of when she's on the treadmill to get hyped for going to trial, and then I had another one who emailed me just a completely random time, who was in the middle of trial, and on the way to trial was listening to our episode on objections and said it would be a crying shame if this podcast goes away, and I was like, Andy, we got people using
Andrew Herreth 1:44
us. Yeah,
Andrew Decker 1:45
we're like I had the tiger for the defense.
Andrew Herreth 1:47
I love it, I love it, man. No, I, you know, it really is, it really is heartwarming. I mean, I, you know, when we first started putting this out, we didn't think anybody would listen, but it really means a lot to us. So, you know, the move and trying to get everything situated. This kind of fell on the back burner a little bit. I, I, you know, in talking with you, I love doing the show. I really wanted to, want to keep it going. I'm glad that we're on the same page and on board with that, and, and you know, hopefully we can get back into doing first and 15th episode drops.
Andrew Decker 2:22
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that it's very possible. Again, it's just finding the time, and I think, yeah, and when I listen, when I ask people, what do you really like about it, compared to some other ones they listen to, and they say it's like listening to two friends basically talk at happy hour or at the coffee shop about an issue they're having. We don't always
Andrew Herreth 2:50
therapy for us, honestly.
Andrew Decker 2:51
Yes, it is a bitch and moan session for us, but they say it comes off as real, that we are just two real guys talking about really, what's going on in our, in our profession, what's going on with cases, what's going on with issues, and that means a lot to me. And I know that I'm amazed where some of these questions come up, and let's be honest, more than once I've been asked a question, I'm like, we recorded a podcast episode on that, and the answer is blah blah blah, or I'm like, give me a second, and I'll send you an episode where we talk about it, and you feel real damn smart when you can
Andrew Decker 3:29
do that.
Andrew Herreth 3:30
Yes, that's exactly right. I love that. Also, it's like, I know why does that topic sound familiar? Yes, that was probably in season two, and you know, which is like five years ago now, but yeah, I love, I love that as well, and we pull these like from our actual practice, so this is not, you know, it's not just some pie in the sky abstract legal theory that we're talking about, this is like real life stuff that attorneys are dealing with on an everyday basis, and today's episode topic is no different,
Andrew Decker 4:09
right?
Andrew Herreth 4:09
How, how many examining trials have you requested?
Andrew Decker 4:14
Um, probably, probably less than half a dozen, I'd say, like four or five, four or five,
Andrew Herreth 4:21
not a lot. I have not done a lot. I just requested one on a case that we may talk about at some point in time, but me, I've maybe requested like, oh, a handful. I can't even put a number on it. It's not a lot.
Andrew Decker 4:36
So, our man, I think Jeff Shear, he's been on the show a couple of times, and he thinks that we mentor him. I think
Andrew Decker 4:44
that's,
Andrew Decker 4:44
yeah, that's that's strange. But shout out to Jeff. He does it at about 30 days for somebody who's sitting in truck, sitting in a jail on that 90 day window. At about 30 days, he'll file an examining trial motion,
Andrew Herreth 4:58
really,
Andrew Decker 4:59
I. Apparently he files them on a very regular basis. Now he's also doing it in rural counties, where he knows that there's a chance nothing's coming back in 90 days, and so he's just trying to push them, basically, to let the guy out on a PR bond, because they can't indict that drug, they can, but Texas really now will not indict a drug case, a felony drug case, without a lab result
Andrew Decker 5:30
back,
Andrew Decker 5:31
right? So he knows
Andrew Herreth 5:32
within 90 days, yeah,
Andrew Decker 5:34
especially in those rural counties where they're shipping it somewhere else.
Andrew Herreth 5:38
That's interesting. Yeah, so mine that I just filed on is a rural county. I've only ever done them in rural counties, but I'll be honest, I've had a handful in Harris County in the short time that I've been practicing here set just as a matter of course. Like, okay, so they're in custody. I was questioning probable cause to the judge, and multiple judges have just said, okay, we'll get a, we'll get a, an examining trial scheduled. Well, then you know they'll bring in witnesses, we can review probable cause, unless it gets indicted. And so it's kind of the same, I think, reason that I've ever requested a, an examining trial, like it just kind of puts pressure on the prosecutor to present it to a grand jury, which is, we'll talk more about that as we get into these, but there it can be an interesting legal card to play for defense attorneys,
Andrew Decker 6:35
right, and for those of you playing along at home, we're looking primarily at the Code of Criminal Procedure, Article 1601 that the accused shall have the right to an examining trial before indictment, and that once that initial appearance is required, you know that they have to let them know the magistrate has to give that notice that you have a right within 48 hours, and that's an article 1517 So, if you want to look these things up, 1601 and 17 of your Texas Code of Criminal Procedure is helpful.
Andrew Herreth 7:17
Yeah, yeah, so they, the magistrate, who's, you know, basically doing that initial arraignment, telling you, informing a defendant of the rights upon arrest, you know, has to let them know you do have a right to an examining trial, and I, and I gotta say, man, some of my clients will just harp on that, like, oh, I want an examining trial, and then I have to go in and explain, like, okay, doesn't, I mean it may not benefit you, but sure, we'll file for an examine. I had a client that was so hell-bent on an examining trial, he thought that was going to be like the end all be all of how he was going to get out of custody, so we, we teed it up for an examining trial, and the magistrate who read him those rights continues that jurisdiction, and the state, when they indicted it, like just before the examining trial, he felt completely robbed of his opportunity to an examining trial, and I'm like, well, I mean, it's kind of in the law, but anyways, Decker, tell me about this memo that you slaved over when I broached the.. when I.. when I said we should do a topic, an episode topic on examining trials.
Andrew Decker 8:35
So, I'm not sure.. I'm not sure secrets.. I'm not sure
Andrew Herreth 8:38
a seven page memo that I know you just slaved over,
Andrew Decker 8:43
so
Andrew Herreth 8:43
we all know you do the research for us,
Andrew Decker 8:46
that
Andrew Herreth 8:47
is true. We are not sponsored by any one product or anything, but this is no, this is incredible.
Andrew Decker 8:56
This, so they, the office downtown, we've been using Lexus for four years, because our primary appellate attorney, it's his preferred way, and so we all switched, the rest of us didn't care enough, and then Lexus, but Westlaw now has it, they have their own AI platforms, just like everybody else. I'm not trying to sell you on it, but ladies and gentlemen, it is incredible. When we got to test run it for two weeks, I'm talking about William Biggs, he's been on the show back in season probably one, when they turned off that two week, two week trial, it was like you just took meth from an addict. I mean, he was like, where did it go, and how do we get it back? I typed in a simple question into the AI response for Lexis AI and said, give me a memo on the pros and cons of an examining trial. Well, and it takes, it took five minutes, but it gives seven pages, and then it gives hyperlinks to the Code of Criminal Procedure, Article 1601 If it pulls up a case law, it gives you hyperlinks, but like anything else, right, ladies and gentlemen, do not just take this, print it out, and take it to a judge. Make sure you check the hyperlink, because it could - it's still AI, and AI, more than humans, will make some stupid mistakes. Go in and check that case, and make sure it hasn't been overruled. Go in and check that site, and make sure that it actually is going to the right place. I found it to be very, very good, but again, seven pages, and it's not really in a form that I would turn it in if I were asked to present a memo, but it's a great bullet point of what you would need to know, and kind of the highlights I would say it's like a cheat sheet for what you need to know on examining trials,
Andrew Herreth 11:05
we're just going to go straight through it.
Andrew Decker 11:07
Yeah, pretty much. But that's how I'm quickly able to cite. Oh, yeah, this is where it goes.
Andrew Herreth 11:13
Well, and the thing is, too, you know, I use Chat GPT, I use Claude just in my everyday life, I would never ask either of those programs to draft me a motion or anything like that that I'm submitting to the court, like I have my forms that I've developed over what, almost 20 years in practice now. The law gets updated every year when we go to an annual update, but it is nice to have, like, it helps me brainstorm, you know, what I may be missing from a fact pattern or something like that. So I think this memo is wonderful.
Andrew Decker 11:55
Well, thanks again. I'm not selling Lexus AI, I'm not selling Westlaw AI, but I think I think that our attorneys, who are not moving in this direction for various things, you're gonna, you're gonna find yourself being left behind, just,
Andrew Herreth 12:14
you know, for a lot of, for a lot of our colleagues, you know, we're, we can, we can get to where we're pretty high volume practitioners, and so you will, unless you're just going to pay out the wazoo for support staff, you're going to need some help at some point in time. So, but just like you said, you know, just be careful with when you jump on the AI bandwagon, what you're using it for, and how you're presenting it, and all that,
Andrew Decker 12:39
right? Yeah, be very careful
Andrew Herreth 12:41
to examining trials.
Andrew Decker 12:44
Right, so remember we are dealing with at the level of an examining trial, and I don't know if this is actually in this paper or not, a very low burden. Remember that basically an examining trial is the same level burden as an indictment. It's the same level burden as a warrant. And what would that level be, mr.
Andrew Herreth 13:10
Herreth?
Andrew Decker 13:12
And on a, on, on a scale of one to 10, and a five being 5050 right? So, preponderance of the evidence.
Andrew Herreth 13:21
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 13:21
where does probable cause sit? 10 being the highest, it's less than, and it's something I'll mention during jury selections. And I actually had a prosecutor object, and the judge overruled, overruled the objection, and said he hasn't said anything that's not true, technically it's less than 5050 and the jury pool always looks like, and I go, you can't win money on this, and I'll hold up the indictment.
Andrew Herreth 13:54
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 13:55
right, there's not enough proof in this piece of paper to you, to you win, to for you to win a 5050 bet,
Andrew Herreth 14:02
right,
Andrew Decker 14:05
and it takes a whole lot of power out of the indictment. So, an examining trial, there's got to be really something missing, but, but it helps you remember we're not your guy that was like, he felt like the wind was taken out of his sails. I think you would have been real surprised when they were like, well, they're it doesn't take a whole lot.
Andrew Herreth 14:26
It does take a whole lot, right? Because we are just determining whether probable cause exists, that is, that is the at the essence of what an examining trial is. Now you, they can bring in whatever you know, witnesses right once you once the defense makes that request and files that motion for an examining trial, you know the state, the state will have to bring in to justify probable cause for their case, and so you, if you actually go to an examining trial, you may. May be able to to hammer those witnesses down on their testimony. You may be able to review or get some baseline discovery prior to an indictment. You may be able to discuss with the judge setting a bond amount if you know if, like, your client was denied bond for whatever reason. Once they hear, once that magistrate or judge hears the facts from the examining trial, they may say, like, 'Oh, I will set a bond on this case, and so you can get some benefits from it, but ultimately, the ultimate question before the magistrate is whether the probable cause exists,
Andrew Decker 15:39
correct? No. in some places, that's going to be the same person who signed the warrant and the same person who magistrated him already. It's going to be tough.
Andrew Herreth 15:53
Yeah, yeah, you're.. it's.. I, I would actually.. this, this may be a nice call for our listeners. Reach out to us if you have taken a case to an examining trial and have, like, won the whole hog from that examining trial. Like, if you knock it out of the park so hard that the judge is like, 'Oh, there's no probable cause here, you get everything you've ever wanted in your life on this case. You know what I mean? Because I agree with you, at that point in time, the magistrate who's like reviewed a PC warrant affidavit that has read, you know, Miranda's or read the statutory warnings to your client upon their arrest, they're going to be the ones that are like reviewing what they are that are that are going to be running or overseeing or they have jurisdiction over this examining trial, and so I, I mean, I've - that's never happened to me personally, but any of our listeners, hey, if that's your experience, if you've got a case you want to talk about where it was resolved at the examining trial, let's get into
Andrew Decker 17:00
it. Yeah, let's get it on. We want to hear about it, but remember again that what I was trying to say was it's a very low burden, so honestly, if they can't meet that burden, it probably should be dismissed and move on and make them continue to investigate or do more work, because your client shouldn't be sitting in custody or on bond conditions or something like that, if they can't meet the very, very low burden at an examining trial level.
Andrew Herreth 17:33
Say, mr. Decker,
Andrew Decker 17:35
mr. Herreth,
Andrew Herreth 17:36
let's assume I have requested an examining trial, I've got a hearing scheduled on the calendar, and a week before, a day before that hearing, sometime prior to that hearing, the state gets an indictment, presents it to a grand jury, and they get an indictment. What happens next? What happens to my examining trial?
Andrew Decker 18:00
You're right, for your examining trials terminated, right? Because the examining trial only exists prior to indictment, it's pretty simple, it's cut and clean. I mean, it's, and often that is what you get, right, mr. Herreth? I mean, you actually talked about this before we went on the air. What happened in the several times that you have filed for an examining trial.
Andrew Herreth 18:22
Nope, yeah, they, they get indicted pretty quickly. And now my examining trial is moot, or I like this word that your memo uses, vitiate. I hope I'm passing that right.
Andrew Decker 18:34
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, and that's actually a quote from a, from a case, obviously an older case, to use a word like vitiate,
Andrew Herreth 18:43
yeah. So you know, again, because we are the examining trial is just to determine probable cause. That's the, that's exactly what a grand jury is doing, determining if probable cause exists for the case to proceed. Now your examining trial is moot because a grand jury has made that determination for the judge. Why would that be beneficial, or why would I want the state to kind of get off their humps and present it to a grand jury?
Andrew Decker 19:15
Well, hold on, I want to tell you where the examining trial 58 comes from. Again, the hyperlinks in this are pretty amazing. It comes from Trussell v State Southwest Second Ninth Kecks Court of Criminal Appeals, 1967 So, a case that is almost 60 years old, so it video eight, but why, right? Because in a lot of small counties, technically a case doesn't exist until there is an indictment. What happens under 3914
Andrew Herreth 19:48
right? So that's when your rights under 3914 kind of come into play. You get, you get discovery once a case is indicted,
Andrew Decker 19:57
correct? Right, because. Case doesn't exist until then in some of the larger counties, Tarrant County, Dallas County, I'm assuming in Harrison County. Pretty much as soon as it's filed in, basically as soon as your name is on the record as the attorney of record, you are good to go. They're their opening discovery, you're getting it in smaller counties. The DAs still read that, and the judges enforce that there has to be a case. Well, if there's nothing filed in the court, there is no case to that they have to answer. They have to open, and so recently I had a guy who's in custody, and we were about to plea him out, and then there was another allegation against him, and so they pulled the pulled the plea and said, "Hey, we got to at least have a chance to investigate this. So once they said that there was anything on that case, just an arrest warrant. I reached out to the DA and said, "Hey, well, you know, you've said that it exists. Will you at least send me the arrest warrant affidavit, so we have some idea what this other case is, where it's coming? Because that's public record, and they obviously had to be able to see that, but they wouldn't - they couldn't give me, they wouldn't give me anything else at the time, but at least gave me something. I at least now had two pages where prior to that all I had was, well, there's another allegation.
Andrew Herreth 21:32
Yeah, that's, and that's frustrating, like, yeah, any, any information in that situation, I think you would be, you'd be very extremely happy with,
Andrew Decker 21:45
yes, yeah, any information is good information,
Andrew Herreth 21:51
so you know what, I didn't know, looking at the post hearing consequences under CCP Article 1617 After the examining trial, the judge must order the defendant committed, discharged, or admitted to bail. Failure to enter an order within 48 hours after the completion operates as a finding of no probable cause, and the accused shall be discharged.
Andrew Decker 22:26
Yeah,
Andrew Herreth 22:27
that can be pretty powerful, especially if you're in a jurisdiction where a magistrate is reviewing PC, and they may not know what or how to operate, you know, after an examining trial, if they, if you get that far
Andrew Decker 22:43
right, well, in some cases you, you will not get an indictment. In, you know, you ask for an examining trial again. I mentioned Jeff Shearer, but even, even in larger counties, you ask for an examining trial on a drug case, um at
Andrew Decker 23:04
30 days,
Andrew Herreth 23:06
yeah, they're not gonna have that lab back,
Andrew Decker 23:08
they're not gonna have that lab back. Your guy's getting discharged now. I think, remember, probable cause doesn't mean, you know, I think a judge, I think a magistrate would say there's probable cause here, he may not be indicted, but I'm going to set a bond.
Andrew Herreth 23:22
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 23:23
right. You might get a better result than you would have without
Andrew Decker 23:31
it.
Andrew Herreth 23:31
Yeah, no, I do. I do think it is. It can be, you know, it's just another arrow in our quiver. You know, if there's.. we need to have all these different abilities if we're getting the runaround from the government, and yeah, maybe I should take more of an approach like Sherere does, and and just start filing these requests, especially on drug cases. I imagine, I imagine any you know, I imagine any number of like prosecutors and judges would would agree to maybe even a PR bond if it'll make that make that examining trial go away, you know,
Andrew Decker 24:12
yeah, because so what's the risk, let's talk about a risk of an examining trial, or the 90 days the drug test isn't back, or 180 days, and it hasn't been indicted. If your person is out of custody, what's the risk, mr. Herreth? There's a risk here.
Andrew Herreth 24:36
What is the risk? Okay, so if I mean, if it's 180 days, your client's not in custody. A judge, you know, one that could get indicted when, when you're just waiting on a time clock now for statute limitations to run, the judge could find. Improbable cause and up the bail. I don't know, maybe.
Andrew Decker 25:04
Well, I don't
Andrew Herreth 25:04
know why they would do that, but
Andrew Decker 25:06
well, but but they can now. They can now up those, up those bonds, and the prosecutor can ask for it. But what I was actually thinking was, so you get discharged and you get out, and then you get indicted later, because you still can be indicted,
Andrew Herreth 25:25
right?
Andrew Decker 25:26
What happens?
Andrew Herreth 25:27
Rearrested,
Andrew Decker 25:28
you're going to be rearrested and have to post a new bond if you, if you haven't already done so. That's the risk, is that you really could end up paying bond twice, because you've been discharged, that bond is no longer valid,
Andrew Herreth 25:41
right? Yeah, and then they, and then just get rearrested, right? Yeah, and you know, for Harris County, they do allow, like, walk-throughs, quote unquote, walk-throughs, where you literally just walk in, get a thumbprint, and walk out. It's a very short, very quick process, the quote unquote walkthroughs in Tarrant County are taking upwards of like 12 hours, at least. When I was last there, is that?
Andrew Decker 26:10
Yes, it looks like they're trying to clean that up a little bit, might get better, but yes, it's.. it's not.. it's not the walkthrough where you go in, get fingerprints, get a picture, and leave.
Andrew Herreth 26:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's a shame. But I mean, other than that, like, I mean, it's a pretty risk-free.. I don't know, it's a pretty risk-free thing to file for, right? I mean, I think if my client was on the outside and we're just waiting on an indictment just so the case can, like, proceed. I don't know if I'm really, like, hustling or hurrying anybody up. I think time is on my side in that instance.
Andrew Decker 26:57
Yeah. No, yes, if they're out of custody, I don't know that I'm doing it, but I, an examining trial for somebody who's in custody, it's a way to either push for an indictment or to have a judge go, there's not enough here,
Andrew Herreth 27:12
yeah, right, and I, and so, and so, because of that, I, I think that, you know, like, like we said earlier, it's a low bar, like the judge, you may not get what you want, but like there's other reasons for, for, for requesting it, you know,
Andrew Decker 27:31
right? You may not get what you want, but you'll always get what you need.
Andrew Herreth 27:34
Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Rolling Stones. I, but I think that it still has enough teeth for the defense, as far as, like, you know, fact-finding mission, putting some pressure on the prosecutor, that it's, it, it should, you know, don't forget to include it in your quiver and take it to war with you guys, you know,
Andrew Decker 28:00
do Know,
Andrew Herreth 28:01
let's see. It gave us this memo, gave us some pros and cons. So, we've already kind of discussed a bunch of this, but I think it's, I think it's kind of worth going back through. What do you think?
Andrew Decker 28:18
Yeah, so things you got to know, you have to ask for one. They don't just magically happen,
Andrew Herreth 28:27
and the state's never going to ask for
Andrew Decker 28:29
one, right? I'm surprised that in Harris County, now part of his Harris County is just trying, I think that those are judges trying to get rid of cases that aren't going anywhere, but them saying, hey, you know, this isn't indicted, we're setting this for an examining trial, but when you mentioned it, I thought I have a court in part in Tarrant County that will file cases that aren't, you know, like have us have a first setting, I think if I get a first setting and there's no indictment, I just start setting, setting them for examining trials,
Andrew Herreth 28:58
yeah, yeah, I think you'd start to see some prosecutors' heads like start smoking at that point, but yeah, I mean, here in Harris County, the reason they do that is once you're arrested, you have court the next day or that day, so a case gets generated immediately, nobody is arrested without the DA approving the arrest, and so they have an intake division at the DA's office. Every police officer in Harris County is calling the DA's intake division, running these case facts by them, and the DA's office has to accept charges prior to that individual being taken into custody, and so a case is generated immediately, defense is appointed immediately, and and we're in there, you know, an offense that occurred on a Saturday, we're talking about it Monday morning in front of a judge. Jeez, yeah, and so it is these, these judges, I think are. I don't know who they, I think they feel like they're under a microscope from at least the public or the county, maybe even the state for processing out these cases, like in a, in a pretty expedited fashion. Nobody sits around unnecessarily. There has to be reasons for lengthy resets. We don't get, you know, we may get a 30 day reset, but they're more likely going to be like a three week reset. But it is, there's.. it's a.. it can be a very quick turnaround, and oftentimes, like, our resets are some of these smaller, these smaller police units, police agencies that just don't have the infrastructure to get the discovery into the DA's office in time, and so you know, like a smaller, out more outdated police agency is still delivering DVDs of body cam or patrol car video, or you know, they're not emailing there, maybe they have to email offense reports in a batch instead of, like, you know, directory where the DA's office has access to pull it straight from their system or something, so it's, it's a pretty big infrastructure here to get people into court, and then get those cases resolved as soon as possible, but and I'm not saying it's like a good system or bad system, I think I would prefer if I was being arrested to like get into court sooner rather than later, but you know that may depend on the case, right? Maybe I want to go sit with my head in the sand for, you know, a couple months, six months to a year, maybe before going to court.
Andrew Decker 31:55
Yeah, I think sometimes we want to sit on our hands just because we want information to go cold. Other times we want to move forward because we're like that, I don't think they improve this case, so why, why sit on it,
Andrew Herreth 32:06
right? Right.
Andrew Decker 32:08
So, on the whole, I, I've only seen them really used to push an indictment. I'm surprised y'all are.. I don't know how you asked for an examining trial after one day, because nobody has enough information to know if there's probable cause if there was an arrest made well in two or three days.
Andrew Herreth 32:28
Yeah, so we have like the system that we get, you know, they'll they'll upload the the PC every officer, when they're turning somebody in, they're, they're writing, they're typing up their PC at the jail, that goes into the system that we look at, that we, as you know, once you get attached to a case as a defense attorney, you can pull it up, you can see the PC affidavit, the judges will ask for probable cause on that first setting, so prosecutors, they're reading probable cause to a judge. If they find probable cause, like, we can argue probable cause, we can, you know, we can waive it, or we just, you know, as defense attorneys, just shut up. If the judge finds probable cause, then you immediately move into, like, a bond type hearing, where you're telling the judge about your client and all that kind of stuff, I mean, it, it, it, it progresses like pretty quickly, and you do get used to, you know, just how like quick this all
Andrew Decker 33:35
is. Yeah, I mean, I guess you get used to it, just like you get, you know, sometimes I will get frustrated the fact that we don't have anything happening for months in a small county, because I'm used to at least some motion in Tarrant. I could see how you get used to it, just being really fast and wanting things to move forward fairly quickly,
Andrew Herreth 34:04
yeah, yeah, it's not, it's not bad, it's a, it's pretty, it's been a pretty big change, but all in all,
Andrew Decker 34:17
it's almost always what you're used to, or get used to,
Andrew Herreth 34:19
yeah,
Andrew Decker 34:21
right, it's people This is the new normal. No, this is just now normal. It's not the new normal. It is the normal.
Andrew Herreth 34:28
Yeah, and I, and I do think, you know, there's because of, like, the volume of cases here, any, any other type of processing through court is not feasible, like Parker County. The way Parker County does cases would absolutely cripple the county here in Harris County, you know. Yeah,
Andrew Decker 34:59
I can. I would tow. Really, imagine that, that would be the case. Yeah. Anyway, so examining trials, pros and cons, they're good and bad. So, talking about pros and cons again, AI, you always want to check it out, since, since we talked about it. The thing that's important about, like, Lexus AI and Westlaw AI is they are closed universe, so again you get a hyperlink to the case that it talks about, you can click on it and go to that case and see it, and then you can do the old fashioned to shepherdize from there to see kind of where it goes and where it is in in other cases, so it is important, I think it is worth the money, and it really wasn't that much more, I think that in within a year or two things like Lexus and Westlaw aren't, you're not going to be able to subscribe to them without having the AI piece, it's just going to be, you're going to be dumb to do it otherwise.
Andrew Herreth 36:13
Yeah, I mean, it's all taking over. We just have to learn to live with
Andrew Decker 36:17
it. My only problem is the amount of energy it takes to run AI, but that's a
Andrew Herreth 36:21
question. I mean, I'm, yeah, man, I see the protests for, like, against the protests against data centers being built in certain communities and all that, and I'm like, yeah, damn the man, go after him, like, screw data centers, and you know, and then I'll go to, like, Clutter Chat GPT, and I'm like, "Make me a cute cat video, and you know, meanwhile, Corpus Christi is, is like running out of water because I've requested a cat video be made and generated, and that data center down there is like sucking up the entire Gulf of Mexico. Yeah, I am. I am part of the problem. I'm trying to be more responsible and aware of my fallacies.
Andrew Decker 37:08
Well, I've never used it like that, but I sure do like using it for legal stuff in Lexington,
Andrew Herreth 37:15
just for work-related purposes. Huh? Decker, okay?
Andrew Decker 37:19
AI, yeah. Well, that's not true. I use Google AI on stuff, but I've never created a cat video or a picture of me at the beach, right? You know, yeah.
Andrew Herreth 37:28
Well, that's that's that's when you get into fun AI.
Andrew Decker 37:31
So I don't have time for that.
Andrew Herreth 37:34
I didn't until, you know, until actually moving, and then yeah, for whatever reason, it's just kind of crept more and more into my life, and I'll, I will use one of these services, just like I use Google, you know. Is there what? Find me a restaurant near me, or, you know, I mean, for anything, I will. I have gotten to the point where I go first to one of these services.
Andrew Decker 38:01
Yeah, I said I'll use that way. I use Google AI that way. Yep,
Andrew Herreth 38:07
it's amazing. I mean, it's, it's really is an amazing service. It's crazy.
Andrew Decker 38:12
Well, it's, it is amazing. It also makes it where everyone else now is just as smart as I
Andrew Herreth 38:22
am, yeah. And in the downside to that is our clients now are just as smart as we are. They've always thought they were, but now they are.
Andrew Decker 38:34
Well, yes. And again, you were.. I think the grievance is going to.. well, you can tell a pro se motion now has been AI generated. I mean, you can feel it when you read it, but also I've - I think the grievance is going to come at some point where it says Chat GPT said that my client, my attorney, should have done these things, and they didn't.
Andrew Herreth 38:56
Oh, certainly. Yeah,
Andrew Decker 38:57
right. That day's coming. I'm not looking forward to
Andrew Herreth 39:00
it. It absolutely is coming. Yeah, that's terrible.
Andrew Decker 39:04
So,
Andrew Herreth 39:04
Oy Vee, okay,
Andrew Decker 39:05
Oy Vey. All right. Well, I think that's enough of that. We've, we've now completely gotten off topic, and well, ruined my afternoon. So,
Andrew Herreth 39:14
I know, I know it. Yeah, no, I, I, I'm glad that we are back and recording episodes.
Andrew Decker 39:26
Me too.
Andrew Herreth 39:28
And I think that I think our listeners are going to enjoy this one. I hope.
Andrew Decker 39:33
I hope so. They ought to learn something. They're going to learn either they need Lexus AI or they're going to learn that they ought to do more examining trials.
Andrew Herreth 39:41
Yeah, you know, so we offer a little bit everything for everybody,
Andrew Decker 39:45
right?
Andrew Decker 39:48
So, in the meantime, it's summertime. I don't think either one of us are going to be in person at Rusty.
Andrew Herreth 39:55
No, not this year, but I will be online. And so all you party animals that are going to Rusty, you know, make just
Andrew Decker 40:06
have a Topo Chico on us, have a Topo Chico on us, or for us, those of you who are going down to South Padre
Andrew Herreth 40:19
to the
Andrew Decker 40:20
train the trainers down there. I will be actually one of the trainers for the trainers, so I'm a trainer's trainer at the training.
Andrew Decker 40:30
Okay,
Andrew Decker 40:31
so that'll be.. I'm not.. I'm having to teach on how to write a CLP CLE paper. I'm not excited about this, it is well harder than you think,
Andrew Decker 40:46
but
Andrew Herreth 40:47
yeah, well, I mean, it doesn't sound easy,
Andrew Decker 40:50
it sounds dreadful, but I'll be there, I'll be glad to visit with you, and you know, find out more. In the meantime, if you want to be on the show, if you have a topic for the show, you have an idea for the show, you have a crazy story, because our crazy stories still get the best, best play, call us, we will put you on the show. We would love to have you on the show. Right, Andy,
Andrew Herreth 41:17
that absolutely, absolutely, it's some of our favorite episodes, you know, the crazy stories out west, way out west, are just, are just incredible. So they've some of our most listened to episodes, our most enjoyable. Yes, please call us if you have a crazy story. If not, you got a boring story, let us know. Well, we
Andrew Decker 41:43
will take that. We can take those too. But reach out to us. You can find us on Facebook at Andrew and Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense. You can find us on the web at Texas Crim defense.com And then, obviously, if you Google Andrew Herreth or Andrew Decker, I actually had someone who had their, they were in Colorado or New Mexico, but their kid was here, they found the podcast, listened to a few episodes, and reached out, they couldn't hire me, but I spent about an hour on the phone with them, kind of talking through what they, what they should be expecting, and they had just, just a general civilian found us and said, "Hey, these guys must know what they're doing based on the podcast. So, you
Andrew Herreth 42:33
love that.
Andrew Decker 42:34
Yeah, it was fun. So, it does happen. You, they can find us, you can find
Andrew Herreth 42:39
us. Absolutely.
Andrew Decker 42:41
Anything else for the good of the people?
Andrew Herreth 42:43
No, sir. I'm good.
Andrew Decker 42:45
Yeah, me too. So, for Andrew Herreth, I'm Andrew Decker,
Andrew Herreth 42:48
and for Andrew Decker, I'm Andrew Herreth.
Andrew Decker 42:51
Y'all be good. You gonna stop the recording,
Unknown Speaker 42:59
you?