Psychodrama in Criminal Defense: How Storytelling Wins Jury Trials | Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense
Psychodrama in Criminal Defense: Why the Best Trial Lawyers Tell Stories Instead of Arguments
By Andrew Herreth & Andrew Decker
Introduction
Most lawyers spend countless hours preparing legal arguments.
They research case law.
They draft motions.
They memorize evidentiary objections.
They prepare cross-examinations.
Yet when a jury enters the deliberation room, they rarely begin by debating legal citations or procedural rules.
Instead, they ask a much simpler question:
Who do we believe?
That question lies at the heart of every criminal trial.
Jurors are human beings before they are fact-finders. They evaluate credibility, emotion, authenticity, and trust long before they dissect legal instructions. The attorneys who understand this reality often become the most persuasive advocates—not because they know more law, but because they know how to communicate their client's story.
In this episode of Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense, attorneys Phillip Hall and Veronica Veyhl discuss one of the most fascinating and misunderstood approaches to trial advocacy: psychodrama. Rather than relying solely on legal arguments, psychodrama helps lawyers uncover the emotional truth of a client's story and present that story in a way jurors can genuinely understand.
Although the word "psychodrama" may sound theatrical or even manipulative, the philosophy is exactly the opposite.
It's about authenticity.
It's about vulnerability.
It's about helping jurors understand that the person sitting beside the defense attorney is not simply a defendant—they are a human being with experiences, relationships, trauma, fears, and motivations that deserve to be understood.
For criminal defense lawyers, this approach can fundamentally change how cases are prepared.
For jurors, it can fundamentally change how justice is delivered.
Why Most Trial Preparation Misses the Point
Law school teaches lawyers how to think analytically.
We learn:
Elements of offenses
Rules of evidence
Constitutional law
Criminal procedure
Case law
Motion practice
Those subjects are essential.
But very little time is spent learning how people actually make decisions.
Jurors rarely experience a trial the same way attorneys do.
Lawyers often become consumed by:
"Can I exclude this evidence?"
"Can I object to that testimony?"
"Will this motion suppress the statement?"
Jurors are asking completely different questions.
Why did this happen?
Does this witness seem honest?
Does this lawyer seem genuine?
Can I relate to this defendant?
Does this story make sense?
Veronica explains that many defense attorneys initially approach trial by focusing almost exclusively on legal theories designed to keep damaging evidence away from the jury.
Psychodrama turns that mindset upside down.
Instead of asking:
"How do we hide the bad facts?"
The better question becomes:
"How do we explain the bad facts honestly?"
That subtle shift often changes everything.
What Is Psychodrama?
Despite its dramatic name, psychodrama isn't acting.
It isn't manipulating emotions.
It isn't performing for the jury.
Instead, psychodrama is a therapeutic process that helps uncover authentic human experiences.
In criminal defense, attorneys often work alongside trained psychodramatists—licensed mental health professionals who guide clients through significant moments in their lives.
These sessions help uncover:
emotional experiences
family dynamics
childhood trauma
relationships
fears
motivations
perspectives
The goal is not to manufacture sympathy.
The goal is to discover truth.
Phillip Hall explains that lawyers themselves are not performing psychodrama.
Rather, they use psychodramatic techniques to better understand the client's life, allowing the attorney to present a complete and honest picture to the jury.
The Trial Lawyers College
Both Phillip Hall and Veronica Veyhl credit much of their approach to their experiences with the Trial Lawyers College, originally founded by legendary trial lawyer Jerry Spence.
The philosophy behind the college is remarkably simple:
Represent people—not corporations, institutions, or governments—and learn how to tell their stories authentically.
Phillip attended the intensive three-week flagship program.
Veronica completed the criminal-defense-focused "Defense of the Damned" program.
Neither describes the experience as an ordinary continuing legal education seminar.
Instead, they describe it as transformative.
Imagine spending nearly three weeks:
with no television,
almost no cell phone reception,
limited contact with the outside world,
and twelve-plus hours every day focused exclusively on trial advocacy.
The experience forces attorneys to disconnect from everyday distractions and focus entirely on becoming better advocates.
Phillip recalls hiking up a hill simply to obtain enough cell service to call Veronica.
By the end of the program, however, the absence of technology became one of its greatest strengths.
Without constant interruptions, participants could devote themselves entirely to learning.
Becoming Your Authentic Self
One of the most surprising lessons from the Trial Lawyers College has very little to do with trial strategy.
Phillip explains that many young attorneys enter the profession with a preconceived image of what a trial lawyer should look like.
Some believe they must:
appear intimidating,
dominate witnesses,
always have clever objections,
project absolute confidence,
or imitate famous courtroom attorneys.
Psychodrama challenges those assumptions.
Instead of creating a courtroom persona, lawyers are encouraged to discover their authentic selves.
Authenticity builds credibility.
Credibility builds trust.
Trust wins juries.
Phillip describes this realization as one of the most important lessons of his career.
Rather than trying to become someone else, lawyers should become the best version of themselves in the courtroom.
Jurors Don't Trust Perfect Lawyers
One of the biggest misconceptions in trial advocacy is that jurors expect perfection.
In reality, perfection often creates distance.
Jurors relate to honesty.
They relate to vulnerability.
They appreciate attorneys willing to acknowledge difficult facts rather than pretending those facts do not exist.
Veronica illustrated this concept by discussing a murder trial involving a client who claimed self-defense.
Her client was already on felony probation.
The defense team believed there was at least an argument for keeping that information from the jury.
Instead, they chose a different strategy.
They addressed it.
Openly.
Honestly.
Why?
Because hiding significant facts often damages credibility.
Once jurors discover an attorney has tried to conceal something obvious, they begin questioning everything else that attorney says.
By confronting the difficult facts directly, Veronica believed the defense earned the jury's trust.
The message became:
"We're not hiding anything."
"This is who our client is."
"Now let us explain what happened."
That honesty allowed jurors to focus on the context rather than assuming the defense was attempting to mislead them.
The Difference Between Excusing Conduct and Explaining Conduct
One of the most important distinctions discussed during the interview is the difference between excusing behavior and explaining behavior.
Psychodrama is not about making excuses.
It does not ask jurors to ignore responsibility.
Instead, it asks jurors to understand why events unfolded the way they did.
Every defendant has a history.
Every witness has a history.
Every victim has a history.
Understanding those histories provides context.
Context does not eliminate accountability.
But context often changes how jurors evaluate:
intent,
credibility,
reasonableness,
punishment,
and ultimately justice itself.
That distinction may be the single greatest strength of psychodrama.
Building Your Tribe
Veronica uses a phrase that captures the philosophy perfectly:
"Build your tribe."
Every jury consists of strangers.
Each juror brings different life experiences.
Different fears.
Different values.
Different struggles.
Yet every human being shares something in common with someone else.
Psychodrama seeks to identify those shared experiences.
Perhaps a juror has struggled with:
anxiety,
divorce,
childhood abuse,
addiction within the family,
military service,
grief,
protecting a loved one,
financial hardship.
When attorneys discover authentic similarities between jurors and clients, barriers begin to disappear.
The defendant is no longer simply "the accused."
They become another human being.
Someone jurors may understand—even if they ultimately disagree with the decisions that person made.
That human connection is extraordinarily powerful inside a courtroom.
Trust Can Matter More Than Winning
One of the interview's most compelling observations is that not every trial ends with an acquittal.
Sometimes the evidence is overwhelming.
Sometimes the law is unfavorable.
Sometimes conviction is likely despite outstanding advocacy.
Even then, psychodrama matters.
Why?
Because credibility continues into punishment.
A jury that trusts defense counsel is far more likely to carefully consider mitigating evidence.
A jury that understands the defendant's life story is more likely to distinguish between punishment and vengeance.
As Andrew Decker observes during the discussion, even when jurors cannot legally acquit, they often become far more compassionate during sentencing because they finally understand the person standing before them.
How Psychodrama Actually Works
To someone observing a psychodrama session for the first time, it can feel unlike anything they've seen in legal practice.
There are no witness outlines.
No exhibit binders.
No PowerPoint presentations.
Instead, the room is often open and intentionally informal.
The client is surrounded by a group of attorneys, trained facilitators, and volunteers—people who will temporarily step into the roles of important individuals from the client's life.
The purpose isn't rehearsal.
It isn't role-playing for entertainment.
It isn't therapy for therapy's sake.
It's about discovering the emotional truth behind the facts.
Phillip explains that these sessions are led by licensed psychodramatists—mental health professionals trained to safely guide participants through emotionally significant memories. Lawyers are there to observe, ask questions, and gain insight into their clients in ways that simply reading police reports or interviewing witnesses could never accomplish.
As the session unfolds, participants physically recreate scenes from the client's life.
A childhood bedroom.
A family dinner.
A fight with a parent.
A conversation with a spouse.
A traumatic event.
Instead of simply describing those memories, clients experience them from multiple perspectives.
The result is often a far deeper understanding—not only for the attorney, but for the client as well.
Looking Beyond the Police Report
One theme appears repeatedly throughout the conversation:
Police reports tell investigators what happened.
They rarely explain why it happened.
A police report may contain:
statements,
timelines,
witness summaries,
photographs,
offense elements.
What it almost never captures is the client's emotional history.
Phillip explains that through psychodrama, attorneys often uncover motivations, family dynamics, biases, and interpersonal relationships that were never documented anywhere in the investigation.
Those discoveries frequently reshape trial strategy.
A witness who appears credible on paper may reveal deep personal resentment.
A client who initially appears detached may actually have experienced years of trauma.
An argument that seemed irrational suddenly makes sense once jurors understand the decades leading up to that moment.
The facts haven't changed.
The understanding has.
The Power of "Doubling"
One of the first psychodrama techniques Veronica discusses is something called doubling.
Imagine a client describing a difficult childhood interaction.
The client recalls telling a parent:
"Stop yelling at me."
On the surface, that seems straightforward.
But people rarely say everything they're actually feeling.
A "double" steps beside the client and attempts to give voice to the thoughts the client may have been unable—or unwilling—to express.
Perhaps the unspoken emotion is:
"You've never protected me."
Or:
"I don't think you love me."
Or:
"I'm scared."
The client can reject those statements or confirm them.
The point isn't to guess correctly.
The point is to explore emotional possibilities until the authentic truth emerges.
As Veronica explains, doubling often uncovers the deeper emotional themes driving a client's life rather than stopping at surface-level dialogue.
Role Reversal Creates Perspective
Another powerful psychodramatic tool is role reversal.
Instead of remaining themselves, clients temporarily become someone else in the story.
For example:
A client selects another participant to portray his wife.
The client then switches places.
Now the client becomes the wife.
The facilitator asks:
"Describe your husband."
Suddenly the client is forced to view himself from someone else's perspective.
Phillip explains that this process frequently reveals motivations, frustrations, fears, and relationship dynamics that neither attorney nor client had previously considered.
For trial lawyers, those insights become invaluable.
Cross-examinations improve.
Direct examinations become richer.
Witness preparation becomes more authentic.
Why Reenactments Are So Powerful
One of the most memorable moments of the interview comes when Phillip describes using reenactments during trial.
Many attorneys rely almost entirely on questions and answers.
Phillip often asks jurors to see the story instead.
He recalled an aggravated kidnapping case involving surveillance video that initially appeared devastating for the defense.
After extensive psychodrama work, however, the defense realized the footage looked incriminating only because jurors lacked context.
Instead of merely explaining events verbally, Phillip physically recreated what occurred inside a vehicle.
The courtroom became the vehicle.
The jurors became observers.
Rather than imagining what happened, they watched it unfold.
The prosecution never objected.
Phillip believes the reenactment fundamentally changed how jurors interpreted the evidence, resulting in a remarkably quick not guilty verdict.
The lesson isn't that every case requires theatrics.
It's that people remember experiences more vividly than explanations.
Every Felony Case Deserves a Story
One of the interview's most surprising revelations is that Phillip now uses psychodrama preparation in every felony jury trial.
Not just murders.
Not just capital cases.
Every felony.
He explains that attorneys—including court-appointed lawyers—have hired him to facilitate psychodrama workups because the process consistently uncovers information they otherwise would have missed.
Some courts have even approved funding for those sessions in serious felony cases because of their potential value in preparing an effective defense.
That commitment illustrates something important.
Psychodrama isn't reserved for extraordinary cases.
Every client has a story.
Every story deserves to be understood.
When the Lawyer Changes Too
Perhaps the most unexpected part of the interview has nothing to do with juries.
It has to do with lawyers.
Veronica openly admits that psychodrama has made practicing criminal defense harder.
Not because trials became more difficult.
Because clients became more real.
Instead of viewing a defendant as:
a police report,
a discovery file,
a cause number,
she now understands:
their childhood,
their family,
their trauma,
their regrets,
their hopes.
She describes representing clients whose upbringing made her return home wanting to hug her own daughter more tightly and think more intentionally about the environment in which she is raising her family.
That emotional investment carries a cost.
Losses hurt more deeply.
Victories become more meaningful.
The Emotional Weight of Criminal Defense
Every experienced criminal defense attorney eventually develops coping mechanisms.
They have to.
The work involves:
violence,
addiction,
abuse,
death,
broken families,
enormous responsibility.
Many lawyers intentionally create emotional distance from their clients to protect themselves.
Psychodrama challenges that instinct.
Veronica acknowledges that maintaining professional boundaries remains important for mental health.
Yet psychodrama asks lawyers to temporarily lower those walls.
Phillip agrees.
He explains that each session reminds him of experiences from his own life, often causing him to reflect on hardships he has overcome and the blessings he sometimes takes for granted.
In that sense, psychodrama becomes more than trial preparation.
It becomes personal growth.
Learning the Craft
For attorneys intrigued by psychodrama, both Phillip and Veronica emphasize that reading about it isn't enough.
The best way to understand it is to experience it.
They recommend several paths.
The first is the Trial Lawyers College, where attorneys immerse themselves in psychodramatic techniques over multiple weeks.
Recognizing that such a commitment isn't realistic for everyone, they also recommend:
the criminal-defense-focused Trial Lawyers College programs,
regional workshops,
work groups hosted by experienced practitioners,
and the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association's Round Top program, which introduces many of the same concepts over a shorter weekend format.
Perhaps most importantly, they encourage attorneys simply to observe.
Watching experienced facilitators work often removes much of the mystery surrounding psychodrama.
More Than a Trial Technique
By the end of the conversation, it becomes clear that psychodrama isn't merely another litigation strategy.
It represents a different philosophy of advocacy.
Traditional preparation asks:
"How do I prove my case?"
Psychodrama asks:
"Who is my client?"
Traditional preparation focuses on:
evidence,
objections,
procedure.
Psychodrama begins with humanity.
That doesn't diminish legal skill.
It enhances it.
Lawyers still master evidence.
Still file motions.
Still conduct rigorous cross-examinations.
They simply add something many legal educations never teach:
empathy.
Final Thoughts
The greatest trial lawyers rarely persuade juries through theatrics.
They persuade through authenticity.
Phillip Hall and Veronica Veyhl remind us that jurors don't decide cases in a vacuum.
They evaluate people.
Stories.
Relationships.
Truth.
Psychodrama doesn't ask lawyers to manufacture emotion.
It asks them to discover it.
When attorneys truly understand their clients, they become better advocates.
When jurors understand defendants as human beings rather than case numbers, justice becomes more thoughtful.
Whether you're an experienced criminal defense attorney, a young lawyer preparing for your first jury trial, or simply someone fascinated by courtroom advocacy, the lessons from this conversation extend far beyond criminal law.
The law provides the framework.
Storytelling provides the connection.
And, more often than lawyers care to admit, connection is what changes verdicts.
Key Takeaways
Jurors decide cases based on credibility as much as legal arguments.
Psychodrama helps attorneys discover a client's authentic story rather than creating one.
Techniques such as doubling, role reversal, and reenactments uncover emotional truths that traditional interviews often miss.
Honest acknowledgment of difficult facts can build credibility with jurors.
Every felony case has a story worth understanding—not just capital cases.
Psychodrama often changes the lawyer as much as it changes trial strategy.
Attorneys interested in learning these methods should consider the Trial Lawyers College, TCDLA's Round Top program, or observing experienced practitioners.
Andrew Herreth 0:05
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Andrew and Andrew on Texas criminal defense. I'm looking at a bright purple shirt across the desk from me. I'm looking at mr. Andrew Decker. It's
Andrew Decker 0:15
a Friday, and I didn't have court.
Andrew Herreth 0:17
Yes, it's a casual Friday,
Andrew Decker 0:19
but I did have my annual physical,
Andrew Herreth 0:21
and I am crossing my fingers that all went well.
Andrew Decker 0:24
As far as I know, you know the blood work takes a couple days to get back.
Andrew Herreth 0:28
There's a number of other Andrew Andrews that are criminal defense attorneys, so we can easily fill either of our spots.
Andrew Decker 0:36
I don't appreciate the way that sounds.
Andrew Herreth 0:37
Just saying, it's not a threat; it's a promise. But today is going to be the Philip and Veronica show.
Andrew Decker 0:44
Yeah, they were classmates of mine in law school.
Andrew Herreth 0:47
Oh, really? Yeah.
Andrew Herreth 0:48
Okay. Do they get better grades than you?
Andrew Decker 0:51
Probably.
Andrew Herreth 0:51
Okay. So we have Veronica Veyhl and Philip Hall, and and today, you know, I'm really excited about this about our topic today because these are, I think, probably some of the best attorneys in the state of Texas that are using what we call psychodrama in trial, and so we're going to talk a little bit about like what that is, where they learned it, their experiences, and just you know get to know these two great. That's not a
Andrew Decker 1:15
telenovela, psychodrama.
Andrew Herreth 1:17
It it probably is.
Andrew Decker 1:18
Okay.
Andrew Herreth 1:19
Yeah, and and you know what? There, I think, you know, with with some of the stories that these trial lawyers have, I'm sure they could both write, you know, true crime books.
Andrew Decker 1:28
Oh yeah, you and I could too. We and it'd be like the
Andrew Herreth 1:30
Lincoln lawyer, you know, it'd be like a page turner. So, all right, Phil and Veronica, hey, how are y'all?
Phillip Hall 1:36
Hi, hey guys.
Andrew Decker 1:38
So tell us a little
Andrew Decker 1:40
bit about who you are, where you went to law school. I know the answer, and how y'all got into criminal defense.
Veronica Veyhl 1:49
I am Veronica Vile. I am from Plano, Texas. Originally went to law school out at Wesleyan, which became A and M with Andrew. I probably didn't make better grades than New Andrew, but I always had a passion for doing courtroom litigation, and just that's kind of how I wanted to get into the practice of law is by doing criminal law. So I did a lot of the internships and externships through Tarrant County DA's office and some of the bar defense bar, just while before I was licensed, and then got licensed and kind of jumped right in. So I went to undergrad at Tennessee, but no one really cares about that because it's not the University of Texas at Austin. So oh,
Andrew Herreth 2:41
we we care more about the other region. Yes, at least I do.
Phillip Hall 2:47
Every time I say that, I always get a little bit of pushback from. Oh, you didn't go to the real UT. I'm like, yeah, okay, sure. Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Herreth 2:54
I'm getting an eye. I'm I'm eye rolling right now. I'm I'm an I'm an Aggie, and yeah. So
Phillip Hall 3:01
until you hear where Philip, because he loves to talk about
Andrew Herreth 3:04
it. Yeah, great. All right, Phil.
Andrew Decker 3:07
Phil, tell us about you.
Phillip Hall 3:09
I grew up in California, but I got here as quick as I could. Grew up in Redondo Beach, and then spent some years in in Orange County, California. Went to UCLA for undergrad, and then came to Texas because the economy was tanking around 2010 when I graduated, and applied to Wesleyan and SMU. Got waitlisted at SMU, and then ended up going to Wesleyan, which I absolutely loved. It was a very hands-on approach. Andrew, I think Andrew and Veronica, y'all can confirm that, and then A and M bought us. So you know our clients don't really care where we went to law school; they just want to know what we're capable of doing in the courtroom and outside the courtroom. But yeah, so we graduated from A and M, and Veronica and I started dating when we started studying for the bar exam together. So we, Veronica has her own firm. I just made partner at the firm that I'm at, and Veronica and I do team up on cases from time to time. She's my she's my secret weapon when it comes to trials.
Andrew Decker 4:13
She's your secret secret weapon in life, Phil. Right. True.
Andrew Herreth 4:18
And y'all are and y'all are married now.
Phillip Hall 4:20
We are now married with a two-year-old baby girl and another kid on the way due in August. Would not
Phillip Hall 4:27
would not recommend starting your relationship studying for the bar in law school, but
Andrew Herreth 4:34
yeah, I mean, I guess you guys you survived that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's true.
Phillip Hall 4:39
This relationship cannot get any worse than these few months of just total stress and anxiety. So, yeah, yeah,
Andrew Herreth 4:47
you can handle. You two can handle anything. And and you know, speaking of handling anything, you guys, like Phil said, you guys have teamed up on some really serious trials and come out on top. Um, and and I really want to talk about like. You know, Phil said Veronica is your secret, your secret weapon. We initially reached out to Phil, and he was like, "No, you've got to have Veronica on. She she really like heads up, you know, the trial strategy and and all that kind of stuff. So briefly, you know, I think like y'all's experience in the trial lawyers college has you know it's something that we've talked about, and I think it's really contributed a lot to your practice. So, just kind of like a brief intro: what what is what is the trial lawyers college? What sessions did y'all attend? Because I I know y'all attended different parts of the school, right? Yeah. it
Phillip Hall 5:42
was the same. Well, it's things have kind of changed with that the entity in general since Phil and I went out there. But Phil did the full three week course, which integrated both civil and criminal trial litigation. Basically, plaintiffs' work and people who represent those accused of crimes, and I did the 10-day defense of the damned, actually run by and led by Greg Westfall, who's also an alumni of the college, and that was, like I said, 10 days but intensive just on the criminal component and not any civil litigation.
Speaker 2 6:22
So, to give you a little bit of overview, for those that are listening that don't know, the trial college there are several trial colleges across the U.S. and there's there's one in in Texas, also the Tim Evans Criminal Trial College, which I highly encourage anybody practicing in Texas go and attend. It is different than the one that we're speaking of, but I highly recommend doing all of these trainings. The one we're talking about when I went 2015 was out in Wyoming, and Jerry Spence is a famous trial where he's written many books about winning your case and success in the courtroom. He put together a program for attorneys who represent people and not corporations or governments in trying to help the attorney discover the client's story. So, what you do when you what what I did when I went out there for the three week course? We go to this ranch. There's no cell phone service and there's no internet and there's no TV, and we basically start at 730 in the morning and go till about 9o'clock at night. Now, granted, we we do have breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and there's a little bit of a break. But basically, we do that for a solid three weeks. The entire three week period, we do have a we have a total of three days off. I think after being there for like a week, week and a half, you get one day off, and then near the end of the program, you have two days off. You have like a Saturday and Sunday, but other than that, you were doing nothing but working on trial skills, and it was a it was a pretty life changing experience. I was calling Veronica while I was out there. You have to kind of climb this little mini mountain or huge hill to try to get any remote service to to call family back home, and I was-I remember calling her, and Veronica probably shed some light on that. And she was like, "What the hell is going on out there? What are you doing out there? You're learning about more dyer.
Veronica Veyhl 8:11
He had tears in his eyes. I was like, "Why are you? You sound like you've been crying. Is are falling just bad? Like, what's happening?
Phillip Hall 8:18
Been cutting onions.
Andrew Decker 8:19
Well, it it sounds it it you start and you're like there's no cell phone service no TV no breaks and all I hear is no work and no TV and no beer makes Jack a dull boy right it's like the beginning of The Shining it's not good man yeah I was
Andrew Herreth 8:36
thinking it sounds more like you know the the rehab programs that we send our clients to sometimes
Phillip Hall 8:41
it kind of felt like one. Now it was the
Veronica Veyhl 8:44
first like 48 hours. It's like an adjustment period of like yeah, like I can't just like mindlessly scroll on my phone or make a phone call or check on the office or you know if you could you had to literally climb a mountain just to see, and you know, a couple days in, it was actually nice to to just say, okay, I literally can't do this. So, and then I think with Phil, he got you know maybe two weeks in was two to two and a half weeks, and was kind of not the breaking point, but just like the okay, it's been long enough. I need to be back in civilization. So yeah,
Andrew Herreth 9:23
right. But
Phillip Hall 9:25
but but to answer your question, really, if if I were to put it like explain it as as as short as possible, it's really just about becoming your true self and becoming vulnerable in front of these juries, and discovering your client's story and sharing your client's story with the jury-that-that is really what it all boils down to. There's no manipulation. There's no lying. There's no exaggeration. There's just literally discovering your client's story and sharing that story with the jury. And I think it took me a long time to realize that you know before I was an attorney, we went to school. You know, we've gone to school for so long. You get your bachelor's degree, and then you graduate, and you're like, I'm going to go to law school, and I want to. You know, for me, I was like, I want to be an attorney that's known to be in the courtroom. Like, I don't want to be. And there's no offense to transactional lawyers. I just that was just not my thing. I didn't want to be sitting behind a desk pushing paper or drafting motions all day. I wanted to be in the courtroom going to trial and and and handling you know high stakes cases, and and so I had this image of like you know what what a trial lawyer might do or what they might look like, and after going to this college, it's you know that there are many different styles, and it's just about finding who you are as a person and being genuine and being true to yourself, because it really is about credibility in the court.
Andrew Herreth 10:54
Well, and that that is that's so true. You know, I find like one of the biggest challenges as a defense attorney is that everybody. I think a lot of like the the the general population has an idea of what a criminal defense attorney is, and it's not really that great of an opinion of our profession. And so the challenge-don't
Andrew Decker 11:11
eyeball me when you say that. Saying, man.
Andrew Herreth 11:13
So the challenge for me has been like stop projecting like that Facebook side of me and actually just be a real person. You know, boil it down to like something that the general public can understand and relate to, and that I don't know. That's you know, at least for me, like it's a very carefully crafted image that I project onto the world, and it's really scary to to put that aside and find something authentic, you know, to
Veronica Veyhl 11:43
yeah, I think a lot of what that the Travelers College the concept in general is is just that I feel like, and this isn't like an attack on any particular school or course or professor, but I feel like at first doing criminal defense, like you said, there's this stigma, but then also this mentality of like, okay, what legal strategies, what legal theories, what law can I use or present that basically keeps evidence out, right? Because it's it feels like it's like we're trying to just protect our clients from being found guilty, right? When in fact this this perspective and this approach is about like no I mean you you know you may have done this we don't like this fact this is a bad fact but we're going to lose our integrity with the jury if we don't address this issue for instance like I tried a murder case back in into January beginning of February in Johnson County, which, as I'm sure most people know, is a terrible county for the defense to just have a fighting chance. But my client was accused of stabbing someone outside of a bar. He was on
Phillip Hall 12:57
felony probation at the time.
Veronica Veyhl 13:00
Yeah, well, Phil took the wind out of the sails of that little.
Phillip Hall 13:03
Sorry.
Veronica Veyhl 13:04
Yeah, but he was felony felony DWI probation, right? And the attorney that I was trying it with, very, very great attorney. You guys know him, and we just had to have this this conversation about do we expose this because we probably could have kept it out, maybe. But I, you know, we we were talking about it. It's just like no, like the jury needs to know this. This is what's going on. You know, my it was a self defense argument, so you know we weren't saying he didn't do it, but it's just like a here you go, guys. Here's the facts, and I felt like it built a level of trust with the jury for for us to just put it all out there, and and it allowed them to see okay they're not hiding anything from us. They've embraced the suck in their case, but we still are able to see past it and see what it is that they are saying or arguing for, and it was able to allow our client to not feel like he had to walk on eggshells to not talk about something. Right? It was almost like this release for him on the stand to just like get it all out there, and it that I feel like that concept is terrifying to a lot of attorneys to think, oh my God, all of these terrible things are going to come in. But most of the time, as we've found in in prepping these types of cases, which I would never recommend applying psychodrama without doing the prep work for it ahead of time to kind of understand where your client's story is going. But a lot of times in doing the prep work for these cases, there's always some mitigating factor. It may not mean your client's, you know, not guilty of the crime, but it's like a oh, wow, okay, I kind of understand why the client did what he did, whether that you know is just. To fight or not, so yeah, that's kind of my thought and approach on it.
Andrew Decker 15:06
Well, so when I hear what you're telling us, Veronica, I think about those cases where we put on the story, our client story, we let that information come out, knowing there's still a good chance they're going to be found guilty. But what we're doing often is we may be trying to fight for the not guilty, but because we've won that trust, that mitigating piece, that feeling of okay, we understand their story, we understand why they did it, we understand, and the jury may not be able to get past the law, but then they become much more gracious when it comes to punishment.
Phillip Hall 15:45
Yeah, and sometimes
Andrew Decker 15:48
that's a huge win.
Veronica Veyhl 15:49
Yeah, because the whole concept of this, and as it pertains to juries, not so much judges, but even judges sometimes, is to build your tribe, and the concept of doing that is everyone. In every, it may not be in a ton of ways, but in some way, everyone can connect to anyone else, right? And so the prosecution oftentimes makes it sound like our client is a monster, or this, or that, or just you know so separated from these members of our community who are law-abiding citizens and show up for jury duty, but by identifying pieces of our clients' lives that are relatable and able to be connected with with jurors, for instance, mental health problems or people who have felt like they've had to protect someone else in their life, or just anything like that, it it causes them to feel a level of empathy for your client. And like you said, it may not mean that they can legally get past finding someone guilty or not guilty, but it but it certainly gives them a level of well, I'm not going to throw away the key on this person, and sometimes, and oftentimes, that's really all a client who knows that they're up against bad facts can ask for is to feel like they've been heard and to feel like their story has been presented and fought for before a jury.
Phillip Hall 17:17
And you know what?
Phillip Hall 17:18
Sorry, go
Andrew Decker 17:18
ahead.
Andrew Herreth 17:19
No, go ahead, Phil. The
Phillip Hall 17:20
other thing I want to add to to this is like your client really feels like you're taking the time, and it's because we are. But they really feel like they're being heard. They feel like someone cares about them, despite the outcome of the case. I mean, I I I have lost cases, and client got a 30-year sentence. You know, I have, I have lost. Of course, I've lost cases, and and I've had clients, you know, that were out on bond. Judge holds a bond insufficient immediately. They go, you know, they walk to the the back and the holdover, and I've had clients look at me and say, "Thank you for believing in me, and thank you for fighting for me, and that just-I feel-I feel worse hearing that, you know, than if he had been, if the client had been like set with me about me messing something up. This stuff is really powerful, and this process allows you to kind of unravel the layers or the emotional truth of the case, and the college. I will tell you will encourage you to to to have the courage to do things that you may not otherwise consider doing in trial. I've done some kind of crazy shit in trial. I don't know if I'm allowed to start if I'm allowed to say that or not.
Andrew Herreth 18:36
That's okay.
Phillip Hall 18:38
I had aggravated kidnapping a couple years ago, and if Veronica came to watch in the audience, I think probably the the gallery was entertained because our client took you what
Veronica Veyhl 18:50
I came to supervise.
Phillip Hall 18:52
Yeah, our client took the stand and there's there's surveillance cameras, you know, as our client is you know of what looked really bad, and then we discovered a story and found out. Okay, this is actually not what happened. This looks bad, but now that I understand the full story, it certainly sheds an entirely different perspective as to what happened. But he took the stand, and I got him off the stand, and we did a reenactment, and we created the back seat of a car, and he and I are literally like recreating. Obviously, I kept my pants on in the courtroom, but we're recreating having sex with one another. And I was showing exactly what was happening while this alleged assault had been taking place, and it was it was a 30 minute not guilty. I I didn't get an objection from the prosecution, I think they were looking at me like I was a complete idiot. Like, what the hell is going on, and what is Philip doing right now? But it, I mean, the the whole process of psychodrama is discovering your client's story and sharing that story with the jury. And I like to do a lot of reenactments and. Courtroom. I like to move around, and and that I think it's really powerful for juries to be able to see that rather than hear what happened.
Andrew Herreth 20:09
And and so we've we've kind of I think have been describing psychodrama throughout throughout the episode, and and kind of hearing just anecdotally how you guys use it is that is that the main. I mean, you know, we talk about like lowering our defenses and and having more empathy, really working with our clients on on finding their story. You know, how do you use like what is psychodrama specifically if we haven't already defined it, and then how do you go about using that in trial? Is it just through these demonstrations that Phil's talking about, I mean, what what are we really talking about? So
Veronica Veyhl 20:46
psychodrama is like so we don't actually we as the attorneys don't do psychodrama. That so we when we prepare these cases, we have an actual psychodramatist come up and work with us, work with our client work with the people who we call them auxiliaries that come in and fill the roles of these these people or these objects or whatever it is that's relevant in the case that we're looking at and it's just really the constant so when I say when we say psychodrama we are discovering our client's story and through the use of psychodramatic techniques, and so for instance, I mean it's it would be more more lengthy conversation to really go into the depths of all of it. But for instance, there's concepts like doubling, right, where you have a protagonist, oftentimes your client, who is the one that we are discovering the the story, whatever that may be, and it may not be the actual guilt or or or not guilt of like the crutch of the case. It may just be this client when he was eight years old, and there was a pivotal moment in his life that sort of changed how the course of his life turned from there on out, right? So whatever it is that we are reenacting, the client may be saying, "Well, I I saw my mom and you know she yelled at me or something like that, right? And so we may say, "And what are you thinking in that moment? And we we put our client back in the shoes to speak in the present tense, and you know how do you respond to your mom? What are you saying to your mom? And for instance, the act of doubling would be: let's say the client says, "I told her to stop yelling at me, right? And a double would then come in and say maybe what this person or this protagonist is not saying, but is thinking, right? And the concept is to develop that further to get the emotion out of what is really going on, right? Because a lot of times we we may say things or we may perceive things that people say, but it's not the heart of the emotional truth, it's just kind of what people say, right? But if the undertone was, "Mom, you've always let me down, and I can't trust you or believe you, well, then that kind of takes us in a different path as to where you know whatever's going on.
Phillip Hall 23:16
So put it, put try if it's a it's a difficult concept to explain, but to try to put it as simple as possible for those that have no idea what what we're talking about, what this is, we hire a licensed therapist, okay, and that licensed therapist is qualified to deal with any potential mental breakdowns or whatever potentially could occur during these sessions. Yeah, and the way that we do it is my partner has an office, not the office that I'm using right now, but we have an office on Barry Street near TCU, and it's a wide open space. And so we will invite a group of lawyers and people to come down, and obviously the client. And I have done this for other attorneys have hired me, and I have put on basically, it's like a focus group, but not a focus group in the sense that you're thinking of. We bring the we bring this licensed therapist, and what we do is we discover bits and pieces of the client's life and what was happening during that time period of the client's life. And so, what Veronica was just describing were certain techniques or tools that we have available as a resource for us to be able to help discover our client's story and discover the emotional truth of a particular situation, and so we may be asking to actually see, like you know, take us to the first time that you met your wife. Where are we at? What does this look like? Where are you guys going? What are you doing? Show us. Find somebody in this room that resembles or looks like your wife. Okay, exchange places. Put yourself in your wife's shoes or stand over there. Okay, you are now your wife. You know, client's wife. Please describe. Client for us. How do you feel about you know? It's about trying to discover your client's perspective as the attorney, and you're gaining all sorts of insight into witnesses, players involved, or the client's story. And it's just you just have such a there's such a wealth of knowledge that you can obtain from using this process, that by the time you go to trial, we know witnesses' motivations, the lies, the fights that have that have occurred, the witnesses' biases, and you're never going to gain any of this stuff from reading a police report. You're just, you know, police detectives are there to collect information and say this is what is being alleged, this is what the witnesses are saying, and that's
Andrew Herreth 25:42
it. Are y'all doing this on every case that goes to trial?
Phillip Hall 25:46
Every felony case, we every single felony case that I have, and and yes, that that's yes. And like I said, I've had other attorneys reach out, and so you know, my my I am available for hire. We have helped other attorneys who have reached out and asked for help. And in fact, I've had I've had courts appoint me, and I'm not holding myself out to be a mitigation expert by any means, but I have had courts appoint me and pay my fee to put on a full day psychodrama session for the client, and basically allow the attorney to come participate. and And I just tell them, hey, you kind of just let me run this, and let me kind of show you and help you discover your client's story to help you gain some insight into your client story. And those those two of the cases were capital murder cases.
Andrew Herreth 26:37
Wonderful. Okay. Yeah. That's
Andrew Decker 26:39
awesome.
Andrew Herreth 26:39
Yeah, we will have a. We'll put it on the show notes too. We'll have an opportunity for you to kind of let us know how to get in contact with you here.
Andrew Decker 26:46
Well, and Phil sent us the link to the trial college, and we'll make sure that's in the show notes as well.
Phillip Hall 26:52
Absolutely,
Andrew Decker 26:52
I'll never find the link again.
Andrew Herreth 26:54
Yeah, I got it. Don't worry. Yeah, show notes is kind of an ongoing struggle with with Decker. So you know there has to have been a point in time in your practice where like you didn't do this, you didn't go through this process. So you know like besides being a lot more prepared for trial and all this, like what is the overall? How has this notion of psychodrama using psychodrama in your trials changed your practice and your approach to these cases.
Veronica Veyhl 27:25
Honestly, it's made it a lot harder for me. Say harder, I don't mean harder to get a certain result. I mean, and and I was just talking to Phil about this case I've got coming up in potentially a week and a half of it's a loser of a case, you know, and it's just one of those where I feel like I want to just protect this person, and you know, it just one, it's a lot more work than just reading your case file, getting your motions ready, you know, showing up, going through procedure and evidence, right? I mean, it. You have to be able to invest yourself in your client and his or her well-being, which you know, not that people don't do that normally, but it's like you get to know this person's upbringing, right? And like sometimes you learn that your client never stood a chance based on you know abuse that they may have suffered as a kid or something like that, right? And so it honestly has made it's made it incredibly rewarding, but it has also made it that much more difficult to to to deal with the losses. I should say,
Andrew Herreth 28:40
yeah. I mean, does it? Do you find that it makes you know you're learning your your client's backstory like in a very intimate way? Does that emotional connection? I mean, like, is that something that you struggle with? You know, as an attorney,
Veronica Veyhl 28:56
we did one a work group. It wasn't. It was for a colleague of Phil and mine on a on a case. It was like a sexual assault case or some form of that, and you know something that just struck a chord with me as we were working with this this individual is, you know, his upbringing. Like he was the kid was only like is only like 25 years old or 23 years old, something like that. But you know, it was we had revisited a scene and developed the story of when he was younger and the relationship he had with his dad and with his siblings, with his whole family, and just seeing how that impacted him and his perspective on life and how he handles things and why he ended up, you know, going to the military and what he ended up doing at that point. It made me sit here and think, holy shit! I need to go home and like tell my daughter all of these words of affirmation and all of these other things because I don't want her to develop these same thoughts or feelings, right? So it just the connection is just. Real, and and I think that that's what it is: is psychodrama or the use of psychodrama in the courtroom. The antithesis of that is being detached from your case, which I feel like for our mental health and wellness as defense attorneys, sometimes we have to do that. We have to close the door, lock the door to our office. Walk away and realize this is not my life that I'm living. Right, my client's struggles and my clients' problems. I cannot carry them with me all the time for my own mental health and wellness. But this practice and doing that doesn't allow for it. It's constantly on my mind. So the The
Phillip Hall 30:41
losses are hard. Losing hurts, you know, because you've gotten to know the family, you've gotten to know the client's story, and when you really believe in a case and you really believe that your client is not guilty, and let me tell you, no, I'm not one of those defense attorneys who believe all of my clients are innocent. Okay, but you really dive deep into the case, and you really start to see issues, and then you try to bring these issues before the jury. And you're, you know, people listening to this, and Andrew, and you guys, you guys know that the court sometimes cut you off at the pass, and you cannot bring that information before a jury. And it's like, oh, it's so frustrating. But it has allowed this process has allowed me to be a lot more, you know, empathetic, and it certainly has, like Veronica has just described. It has every time we do one of these, this it is a form of therapy for us because it, you know, we're connecting with a client, and then we're starting. We're reminded of things potentially in our own life that might have occurred that we take with us, and it's like I forgot I went through that. I forgot about this. I forgot about that. Or it may say, you know, may say, Wow, like this this kid's really going through a lot. I I have a lot to be grateful for. I should be you know I should count my blessings, you know. And so I always I always personally take something away every time I do one of these sessions, and Veronica and I like to travel a lot, and this this that is a reason we like to travel is because we just have to get away. It is a lot of stress, and I know anybody listening who does criminal defense carries that stress with them. You have to be able to decompress and get away and enjoy life, and then come back, obviously refreshed and ready to get right back after it. You know, because like my partner Francisco says, you know, take all the atta boys because you got an ass whooping coming around the corner, and I know that that is very real.
Andrew Decker 32:33
That is very real.
Andrew Herreth 32:34
So true.
Andrew Decker 32:35
So the best place, the the the next question we really have for y'all is, how where do we go to learn it? Where do we go to find it? Is it primarily just go to the trial college that y'all have recommended?
Veronica Veyhl 32:48
I think you need a fundamental basis. Like there's some things we talked about, like doubling or mirroring or you know soliloquy things like that. That you know it's more of like an educational thing, just to get the idea of how it works. But yes, ultimately, I would say go to one of these courses, either the three-week one, the 10-day one. They do regionals throughout the country, but on a smaller scale and something that involves less of a financial and personal commitment away from your personal life, Phil and I have these work groups. We try and do them once a month, and there's another attorney in Dallas named Patrick McLean, who I mean, literally is traveling the world. Seems like every other week for cases. He does a lot of military representation as well. So there's a lot of different jurisdictions that he's in and out of, but he hosts a ton of work groups as well. And so I would say, just you know, reach out to one of us, and we will let you know the next time that we have a work group, and just come and observe. I mean, I think people feel like if if they go to these things and they have to just understand how all of it works, and that's not it at all. We've had people that have come to observe and have maybe said, you know, a handful of things, but it's more of just making yourself vulnerable and allowing yourself one swearing to confidentiality as to what you hear about other people in that meeting, but also just allowing yourself to be vulnerable and connect and look for that connection, or look for a way that this has, you know, that you, the individual, can bring a unique perspective to this client. And it may not be solving the case, right? It's not about, well, I think you should file a motion to suppress, and then you won't have this issue, right? It's more about I connected with you because of your story involving your dad, and I went through a similar story as well because of X, Y, and Z. And so that's really the biggest way. And that feedback that we get from whether they're attorneys or not, that feedback is so valuable because you realize how connected, interconnected we all really are. How an issue that may not have been an issue that the attorney is really focused on could actually be a bigger issue that needs to be addressed with the jury because of the feedback these people who are seeing this story unfold how it impacts them.
Andrew Herreth 35:17
Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, it's it it is it is very cool. It's uh very intriguing. Definitely going to hit you guys up for the for the next session. I know Phil has invited me in the past. I'm like I don't know, man. That's a Saturday, you know. But you know it's not. Well, and you're
Andrew Decker 35:34
antisocial.
Andrew Herreth 35:35
I don't I don't like fun and um right. Yeah, but I I I am very intrigued. I'm I'm very interested in in learning what you guys know.
Phillip Hall 35:44
There also is a program sponsored by the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association called Round Top, and it usually takes place in October, and it's just a weekend deal. I know some people listening might be thinking three weeks is a long time. I can't cut my practice. I can't leave for three weeks. I'm telling you, if you make the commitment, it will be life changing. And I'm so glad I went early on in my career because you know three weeks is a long time. I will just say it is a long time. It may be very difficult to get away, but if you really commit yourself to doing it, I I think the the the rewards that you will you will you will gain from this learning this process and being there are going to be more than tenfold. But if you cannot do that, if you not cannot commit to a three week course, Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association does a kind of a weekend crash course of psychodrama, which is called Round Top, and it usually takes place the beginning of October. So you got Trailers College, you have TCDLA's Roundtop, and then you have us. If you just want to see what the process is, feel free to reach out, and I invite you guys to come down and come be part of the process, so there there are multiple ways of getting involved, or at least seeing or learning about the process.
Andrew Decker 37:05
Very cool, very cool. See, it's proof that they probably did make better grades than I did in law school. Absolutely, yeah. I
Phillip Hall 37:11
definitely did not. I can assure you that.
Phillip Hall 37:13
So,
Andrew Decker 37:15
so guys, with every one of our interviews, we like we like to know the story behind the person, right? We're more than just our our attorneyship, which is what we've been talking about for our clients. And one of the ways we pull back that veil a little bit is we ask just some very simple get to know you questions that we ask everybody. So first, and this is going to be different answers for both of you, briefly. Who's your favorite band or musical artist? artist
Phillip Hall 37:43
for me, it's Deftones.
Andrew Herreth 37:45
Deftones, the Deftones. Is that the California guy, Redondo Beach, coming out?
Phillip Hall 37:50
I mean, might be. Yeah, he's you know, there's a there's a robbery just like you know Dallas and Fort Worth. These guys are from Northern California. They're from Sacramento. Yes, I like I like heavy metal. I like heavy metal, and I also like rap. I mean, I actually like a lot of genres of music. But when I'm in trial mode, if I'm working out, a lot of it is I'm listening to heavy metal. That's what I'm listening to on the way to the courthouse. Veronica hates it. I like to. I played sports growing up, so I, yeah, I jam out in the morning. I got the the you know the speakers going full volume, she she absolutely hates it. But I get that's I get ample.
Veronica Veyhl 38:25
Doesn't have to be that loud. Is all I'm saying. I I don't know. I I I actually never know the answer to this question because I don't listen to a ton of music. But I I like Phil and I love Drake. We just bump Drake all the time, but I like Kings of Leon, Taylor Swift, Morgan Wallen, like just kind of every a little bit of everyone, everything. So no, no set person or band.
Andrew Decker 38:55
And just to be clear, Veronica, you also played sports growing up, right?
Veronica Veyhl 38:59
Yeah, I don't know what that comment was filled because I
Andrew Decker 39:01
played
Veronica Veyhl 39:02
a lot more sports than you did, and listening to music, just not at the decimal that you did.
Andrew Decker 39:12
Sorry, I may know them well enough, know where the sore points are. So, what's a favorite book or one that you've read that you're like, hey, y'all need to read this.
Phillip Hall 39:24
Well, this is this is, I mean, probably many people obviously are recommending this book. One that I enjoyed was the Art of Racing in the Rain, but one that I would recommend people read if you have not already, and I'm sure you've heard of it, is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
Andrew Herreth 39:46
Yeah,
Phillip Hall 39:47
currently listening to that book on on Audible again, but that is one that I certainly would recommend listening to and checking out.
Veronica Veyhl 39:56
So he asked, which book have you read, not which one have you listened to?
Andrew Herreth 39:59
Well, then I don't have them. I count those because I I I only listen to my books now, so I count I count outable.
Veronica Veyhl 40:07
Oh, I do too. Philip says it's not. It doesn't count because I'm not reading a book. I'm like I still knowledge.
Andrew Decker 40:14
So so for if we're gonna get technical like that, I have an app on my phone that is called Headway, and it takes like the key points of something like the the how to win friends and influence people, and it gives you like the top six key points in the course of 20 minutes. So, so that I've I've read the book too.
Andrew Herreth 40:36
Yeah, that doesn't count.
Phillip Hall 40:37
You like headway? I've got recently got an advertisement for that. I feel like I feel like I need to really listen to the the audio book or read the book to really kind of grasp everything. But I'm certainly a fan of the bullet points, cliff notes deal as well. Do you enjoy that app, Andrew? I do
Andrew Decker 40:52
enjoy the app. All it does because you only get the bullet points, you know, when you listen to it basically like in a commute. I end up listening to only like two or three minutes each day of the of the that one book, but when you start listening cumulatively, you start finding those things that repeat. Like, are you making a to do list? Do you have your goals and visions? What is what do you want in life? And so you start actually kind of picking up the four or five things that you go, these things I'm supposed to be doing. There's
Andrew Herreth 41:22
a common denominator there. The
Andrew Decker 41:23
common denominator. Yeah, Headway
Andrew Herreth 41:24
is not a sponsor, but if they would like to be a sponsor, or Tobo Chico, contact us.
Andrew Decker 41:29
Oh yeah, Veronica. Sorry, your book that you have read or not read?
Veronica Veyhl 41:33
Listen to, and again, I'm 100% Audible. If Audible wants to sponsor this too, I would totally
Andrew Herreth 41:39
fantastic. Yeah,
Veronica Veyhl 41:41
I am a historic fiction person. Just obviously, we all know kind of just the heaviness of what we deal with on a day to day. So I personally like to detach from the you know the reality and kind of go back. But I enjoy like World War II historic fictions. Anyways, that's kind of where a lot of my books come from, but one that I read recently or listened to recently is called "Before We Were Yours. That one, I mean, I can give a synopsis of it, but it's a historic fiction based on a real orphanage in Tennessee, where basically this is obviously before the day and age of computers and technology, but these this this woman and and some of her employees would go down to really poor regions of the South and basically go to the hospital when these women are having these babies and say, Hey, look, we'll cover all your medical bills. Just sign these documents, and they didn't realize they were signing over their rights to their children. And what the orphanage was doing was basically profiting off of these these babies to wealthy families that didn't you know couldn't have or didn't have children, and basically selling them to these wealthy families, and so it follows these. I think there are four siblings, I believe, and it's kind of a dual narrative, which I also appreciate. But yeah, like that actually happened, and that is mind blowing to me to think about my newborn being taken from me, and then never like some of these people just never knew what happened to their kids, and so, yeah. Anyways, but just that-that-that was a a really good good book to me.
Andrew Herreth 43:27
Yeah, I imagine like a book like that would probably also fire you up to like fight the the government, you know, like while you're reading it. Yeah, yeah. Definitely
Veronica Veyhl 43:35
just a reminder, and also World War Two stuff. I'm sure y'all know enough about that, but just it's a reminder of like the world has so many messed up things about it, and like so many things that are just glossed over. Of like, oh, this happened, but we're just gonna like kind of keep moving forward. Yeah, it's sad.
Andrew Decker 43:54
Yep, yep. So, last question, Andy, you want to ask
Andrew Herreth 43:57
it? Sure. Yeah. What's the like? What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given, or or one that you just kind of find yourself passing along to others consistently. One
Phillip Hall 44:09
that I'm actively living. I got this from my partner. Shout out to Francisco Hernandez. It took me a long time to process this, but my favorite thing, because it's true. Is do you want to be right or do you want to get your way? Pick one, but you can't have both. I find myself saying that to clients a lot, and sometimes Veronica has to remind me and tell me that at time from time to time also, and it carries over in negotiations, having that mindset. Like, do you want to be right or do you want to get your way? Like, do you want to do you want to get a reduced charge? You want to get a you want negotiate a lesser charge from like a sexual assault of a child to injury at a child, but you're upset that the guy has to plead guilty. Like, do you want to be right? Then go to trial and see what happens. You know, it's it's. But you can't have both. But that that that would be probably my at least as the past several years, it'd be yeah. Do you want to be right or do you want to get your way? Pick one, but you can't have both. And I think that implies many different aspects of life.
Andrew Herreth 45:15
Certainly, I
Phillip Hall 45:16
thought yours was going to be live, laugh, love, Phil.
Speaker 2 45:19
Yeah,
Veronica Veyhl 45:22
or everything. happens for a reason, right? I don't really. I mean, yeah, I really like Fran told Philip that. Phil told that to me, and so yeah, I I see that on a daily. I say it to some of my clients too. I'm like, look, if you want this, let's go for it. But one of the things I I don't know where it really came from, but I've just started saying it to to Ivy, our daughters. Just every night before she goes to bed, she kind of gets a little bit of like, I don't want to be by myself, and then it takes her a minute to settle down to go to sleep. And I always am like, What do we say? And she says, Be brave. And so I know that that's kind of just a stupid thing in general, but I feel like I need that reminder sometimes too when it's like, you know, it's tough to face these these challenges in personal life, but in in our professions as well. Like to to say, all right, I'm going to go into battle. I'm going to do the best that I can. And I think sometimes just having that reminder to like, you know, be brave and just do the shit, you know. Because if you don't do it, then what happens? You know. The other thing, the other one, briefly, just relating to people who deal with anxiety and stuff like that, is don't borrow worry. Because that that kind of is the definition of anxiety is just borrowed worry. And I kind of have to remind myself of that sometimes. Of like, am I just, am I anxious because of something that hasn't yet happened yet that I may have no control over, or is this actually something that I can change? You know, and then kind of go from there.
Andrew Herreth 46:53
I love that.
Andrew Decker 46:54
Yeah, very very cool. So, guys, if one of our listeners needs to reach you, how would they find you? How would they get a hold of you?
Andrew Herreth 47:04
Yeah, Veronica
Andrew Decker 47:05
will let you go first.
Andrew Herreth 47:05
No personal cell phones.
Veronica Veyhl 47:08
Okay, I was going to say Snapchat. No, I'm kidding. I don't have a Snapchat. They can just email me. They can email Veronica at Fort WorthTrial lawyer.com or they can call or text the office mobile, which is 817-948-6717 and yeah,
Andrew Decker 47:30
cool for me.
Phillip Hall 47:31
You're welcome to look me up on Google, Philip Hall, Philip with 2l's H A L L is my last name. I'm in Fort Worth. I'm in downtown Fort Worth. You can also contact me via email. It's just Philip P H I L L I P at Texas spelt out Mexico spelt out law.com philip@texasmexicolaw.com and I'm more than happy to to share any information or advice if anybody is curious, I have no ego when it comes to about sharing my information. Many people have led the way for me and have shared their their knowledge upon me, and I'm I'm happy to pass that forward. and And I hope you know attorneys who are interested do reach out to us because we welcome you to learning about this process, and we hope that you would consider going to the trial lawyers college, or at least you know gaining some insight and joining us in this unique style of occurring cases.
Andrew Decker 48:29
Very cool, wonderful. Well, guys, thanks so much for being on the show. It was well. I we actually see each other in court on a very regular basis, and we talk on a fairly regular basis. But this has been fun. It's been fun, kind of getting a glimpse into some of the cool stuff you do. So, on behalf of Andrew Herreth, I'm Andrew Decker,
Andrew Herreth 48:50
and on behalf of Andrew Decker, I'm Andrew Herreth. We'll see y'all next time.
Phillip Hall 48:54
Thanks, guys. Have a good one.