What Great Criminal Defense Lawyers Do After a Client Is Arrested: Best Practices for Building Stronger Cases
What Great Criminal Defense Lawyers Do After a Client Is Arrested: Best Practices for Building Stronger Cases
By Andrew Herreth & Andrew Decker
Introduction
When people imagine criminal defense lawyers, they usually picture dramatic courtroom cross-examinations, passionate closing arguments, or high-stakes jury trials.
The reality is much different.
Many criminal cases are won—or lost—long before anyone steps into a courtroom.
The first few days after an arrest often determine the direction of an entire case. Decisions made during that period can affect negotiations with prosecutors, bond conditions, treatment opportunities, sentencing outcomes, and even whether charges are ultimately filed.
While legal knowledge is essential, effective criminal defense begins with something much simpler: helping people through one of the most stressful moments of their lives.
Every case starts with a phone call.
Sometimes it's from someone who has just been released from jail.
Sometimes it's from a terrified parent.
Sometimes it's from a spouse who has no idea what comes next.
Rarely is the caller calm.
More often, they're overwhelmed, embarrassed, frightened, and desperately searching for someone who can restore a sense of control.
In this episode of Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense, Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker discuss what happens after a client hires a criminal defense lawyer. Rather than focusing on courtroom strategy or appellate decisions, they explore the practical side of criminal defense: calming anxious clients, preparing them for the legal process, encouraging positive life changes, and building stronger cases from the very beginning.
Criminal Defense Begins with Crisis Management
Every criminal defense attorney eventually realizes that clients aren't hiring a lawyer simply because they need legal advice.
They're hiring someone to guide them through a crisis.
Andrew Decker describes meeting clients who arrive at his office unable to tell their story without becoming emotional.
Some speak so quickly that it's impossible to follow what happened.
Others struggle to talk without crying.
Many have never been arrested before.
They have no idea what to expect.
The lawyer's first responsibility often isn't legal analysis.
It's helping the client slow down.
Take a breath.
And recognize that they're no longer facing the situation alone.
That may sound simple, but it's incredibly important.
A panicked client rarely communicates clearly.
They forget details.
They jump between topics.
They focus on the parts of the story they find most upsetting rather than the information their attorney actually needs.
By creating a calm environment, lawyers put themselves in a much better position to understand what really happened.
Managing Anxiety Is Part of the Job
One of the recurring themes throughout the discussion is that criminal defense lawyers spend as much time managing emotions as they do managing legal issues.
Parents frequently call terrified because their teenager received a Minor in Possession citation.
Individuals charged with misdemeanor assault believe they're going to prison.
People arrested for the first time often assume the worst possible outcome is inevitable.
Many simply don't understand the criminal justice system.
Andrew Decker explains that one of the attorney's most valuable roles is separating realistic risks from imagined ones.
Sometimes that means telling a worried parent:
"This is closer to a traffic ticket than a felony."
Other times it means reassuring a client facing a misdemeanor that prison simply isn't a possible punishment.
That reassurance doesn't minimize the seriousness of the case.
Instead, it allows clients to make rational decisions rather than emotional ones.
The Lawyer Becomes the Calm Voice
Good criminal defense lawyers aren't merely advocates.
They're problem-solvers.
Andrew Herreth describes one of his goals after being hired:
He wants to remove as much anxiety from the client's shoulders as possible.
Clients often arrive carrying enormous uncertainty.
They're worried about:
Losing their job
Going to jail
Their driver's license
Their family
Their reputation
Their future
While attorneys can't eliminate every uncertainty, they can provide structure.
That begins with answering questions honestly.
Sometimes the answer is:
"I don't know yet."
Sometimes it's:
"We're waiting for charges to be filed."
Other times it's:
"Here's what happens next."
Simply understanding the process often reduces fear dramatically.
Not Every Case Is Ready to Fight
One of the realities of criminal defense is that many newly hired cases can't immediately be litigated.
A client may hire an attorney the day after an arrest.
But prosecutors may not even have the file yet.
In many Texas counties, felony charges aren't formally filed for weeks—or even months.
Until that happens, there's often very little a defense attorney can accomplish procedurally.
As Andrew Decker explains, lawyers sometimes find themselves in a waiting period.
They've been hired.
The client expects action.
Yet no prosecutor has reviewed the case, no discovery has been produced, and no court has jurisdiction to hear substantive motions.
For inexperienced attorneys, that waiting period can feel frustrating.
For experienced attorneys, it's an opportunity.
Productive Waiting
Instead of doing nothing, skilled defense lawyers begin preparing for future negotiations.
Andrew Herreth explains that this period is often the perfect time to address collateral issues affecting the client's life.
For younger clients, that may involve discussing future goals.
For others, it may involve resolving driver's license problems, employment concerns, or other practical issues unrelated to the criminal charge itself.
These conversations serve two purposes.
First, they genuinely help the client.
Second, they demonstrate to prosecutors that the client is taking the situation seriously.
Those efforts often become valuable mitigation later in the case.
Bond Conditions Are More Than Rules
Every lawyer has experienced it.
A client is arrested.
Released on bond.
Then arrested again.
Or they continue violating bond conditions.
Or they continue using drugs despite mandatory testing.
Those situations make every criminal defense attorney's job significantly more difficult.
Andrew Herreth emphasizes that one of the earliest conversations he has with clients involves carefully reviewing every bond condition.
Not simply because violating bond conditions creates legal problems.
Because following them often improves the client's life regardless of the criminal case.
For example, clients facing felony DWI charges are encouraged to stop drinking immediately.
That advice isn't merely about impressing prosecutors.
It's about reducing future risk.
Showing responsibility.
And demonstrating that the client recognizes the seriousness of the situation.
Addiction Changes the Conversation
Drug and alcohol cases often require attorneys to think beyond traditional legal strategy.
Many clients sincerely promise they'll stop using substances immediately after their arrest.
Some succeed.
Many do not.
Andrew Decker asks clients a question that quickly reveals whether addiction may become an issue:
"When was the last time you went more than seventy-two hours without using drugs or alcohol?"
The answer frequently changes the conversation.
Clients who haven't remained sober for years may genuinely want to comply with bond conditions.
Wanting to change, however, isn't always enough.
Those clients often need treatment rather than simply good intentions.
Rehabilitation Can Become Powerful Mitigation
One of the most practical discussions during the episode involves inpatient rehabilitation.
Many attorneys hesitate before recommending inpatient treatment.
Will the client miss court?
Will the judge revoke bond?
Will prosecutors view it negatively?
Andrew Decker shares experiences suggesting the opposite.
When clients voluntarily entered treatment, successfully completed rehabilitation, and maintained sobriety afterward, judges frequently viewed those efforts favorably.
Rather than punishing clients for seeking help, courts often accommodated treatment schedules and expected defendants to return immediately after discharge.
Those clients weren't simply making legal arguments.
They were demonstrating meaningful change.
That distinction can make an enormous difference during plea negotiations and sentencing discussions.
Good Lawyers Become Better Counselors
One of the most interesting aspects of criminal defense is how often lawyers become something more than legal representatives.
Clients ask about:
employment,
education,
addiction,
counseling,
veterans' programs,
relationships,
and future goals.
Andrew Herreth notes that helping clients improve their lives often improves their criminal cases at the same time.
Someone who begins treatment.
Returns to work.
Completes counseling.
Attends Alcoholics Anonymous.
Complies with every bond condition.
Becomes a much easier person for a prosecutor—or a judge—to view as deserving of leniency.
Those life changes aren't simply negotiation tools.
They're often the beginning of genuine rehabilitation.
Why Every Criminal Defense Lawyer Needs a Client Action Plan
One of the most practical ideas discussed during the episode is that every new client should leave the initial meeting with a clear list of actions.
Clients often expect that, once they've hired an attorney, there is little left for them to do besides wait.
The opposite is usually true.
The period immediately following an arrest often presents the greatest opportunity for a defendant to demonstrate responsibility, maturity, and a willingness to address the issues that contributed to the criminal charge.
Andrew Herreth explains that clients should leave the office understanding they have an active role in improving their case—not simply because it helps negotiations, but because many of those actions improve their lives regardless of the legal outcome.
A thoughtful action plan may include:
Following every bond condition without exception
Beginning counseling or therapy
Completing substance abuse evaluations
Attending Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous
Maintaining steady employment
Performing community service
Avoiding further police contact
Keeping the attorney informed of any significant life changes
These aren't merely boxes to check.
Collectively, they tell a story.
When negotiations eventually begin, prosecutors and judges aren't simply evaluating the criminal allegation.
They're evaluating the person standing before them.
Explaining the Law in Plain English
One of the marks of an exceptional lawyer is the ability to explain complicated legal concepts in language clients can actually understand.
During the discussion, Andrew Herreth uses the concept of possession as an example.
Many defendants insist:
"It wasn't mine."
Sometimes that's true.
Sometimes it isn't.
But ownership and possession are not the same thing.
Instead of reciting statutory definitions, attorneys should explain concepts using everyday examples.
Imagine several friends riding in a vehicle.
Police discover narcotics beneath one of the seats.
Who possessed them?
The answer isn't always obvious.
The law often focuses on whether someone exercised care, custody, control, or management over the item—not whether they purchased it or considered themselves its owner.
Clients who understand those distinctions make better decisions about whether to negotiate, proceed to trial, or seek additional investigation.
Good client counseling requires education.
The more clients understand their legal situation, the more effectively they can participate in their own defense.
Helping Innocent Clients Understand Risk
Perhaps one of the most difficult conversations every criminal defense lawyer eventually has involves clients who firmly maintain their innocence.
Some truly have been wrongly accused.
Others sincerely believe they did nothing illegal while misunderstanding how the law applies to their conduct.
Regardless, attorneys face a delicate balance.
On one hand, lawyers must advocate zealously.
On the other, they must prepare clients for every possible outcome.
Andrew Decker emphasizes that telling clients only what they want to hear does them no favors.
Honest legal advice sometimes includes difficult conversations about:
evidentiary weaknesses,
witness credibility,
unfavorable facts,
sentencing exposure,
and the risks of trial.
Those conversations require trust.
Clients are far more likely to accept difficult advice when they believe their attorney genuinely understands their perspective rather than dismissing it.
Rehabilitation Isn't Just for Drug Cases
One of the most insightful observations from the episode is that rehabilitation extends well beyond substance abuse.
Many criminal cases arise from underlying personal struggles.
Those struggles may include:
unmanaged anger,
unresolved trauma,
poor communication,
unhealthy relationships,
untreated mental illness,
or chronic stress.
Andrew Herreth explains that recommending counseling, anger management, or conflict-resolution classes isn't about admitting guilt.
It's about demonstrating growth.
Consider a family violence allegation.
Even when a defendant disputes the accusation, voluntarily completing anger management or relationship counseling may demonstrate maturity and a willingness to prevent future conflict.
Similarly, someone charged with a DWI benefits from addressing alcohol use regardless of the ultimate disposition of the criminal case.
Judges and prosecutors frequently distinguish between defendants who merely deny responsibility and those actively working to improve themselves.
Communication Is an Ongoing Process
Hiring an attorney doesn't eliminate uncertainty.
In many criminal cases, weeks—or even months—may pass with little visible activity.
Discovery requests remain pending.
Laboratory testing continues.
Prosecutors review evidence.
Court settings are reset.
To clients, however, silence often feels like inaction.
Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker stress the importance of maintaining regular communication throughout representation.
Sometimes the update is simply:
"Nothing has changed."
Oddly enough, that message still has tremendous value.
It reassures clients that their attorney remains engaged.
It prevents unnecessary anxiety.
And it reinforces trust.
Many client complaints stem not from poor legal work, but from poor communication.
Keeping clients informed—even when there is little news to report—can dramatically improve the attorney-client relationship.
Lawyers Solve Problems Beyond the Courtroom
One theme consistently appears throughout this discussion:
The best criminal defense lawyers don't merely defend cases.
They solve problems.
Sometimes the legal issue is only one part of a much larger challenge.
Clients may need help finding:
treatment providers,
counselors,
veterans' services,
mental health resources,
employment opportunities,
educational programs,
or community organizations.
Attorneys need not become social workers.
Yet maintaining a network of trusted professionals allows lawyers to connect clients with resources capable of producing lasting positive change.
Those referrals benefit everyone involved.
Clients improve their lives.
Families become stronger.
Communities become safer.
And criminal cases frequently become easier to resolve because defendants have demonstrated genuine rehabilitation rather than making empty promises.
The Most Effective Defense Often Begins Outside the Courtroom
Popular culture teaches that criminal defense revolves around courtroom drama.
Cross-examinations.
Closing arguments.
Surprise evidence.
While those moments certainly exist, many successful outcomes result from months of thoughtful preparation occurring entirely outside the courtroom.
Clients who:
remain employed,
complete treatment,
obey bond conditions,
avoid new arrests,
maintain sobriety,
and consistently communicate with counsel
often place themselves in dramatically stronger negotiating positions than similarly situated defendants who do nothing.
Those improvements cannot erase criminal allegations.
But they frequently influence how prosecutors, judges, probation officers, and even juries perceive the individual accused of the offense.
Final Thoughts
Every criminal case begins with uncertainty.
Clients arrive frightened.
Families have questions.
The legal process appears confusing.
A criminal defense lawyer's first responsibility extends beyond legal analysis.
It is to provide clarity.
The conversation between Andrew Herreth and Andrew Decker reminds us that outstanding criminal defense begins long before trial.
It begins by listening carefully.
Explaining the process honestly.
Helping clients make better decisions.
Connecting them with meaningful resources.
And encouraging genuine personal growth.
Whether a case ultimately resolves through dismissal, plea negotiations, or trial, those early conversations often shape everything that follows.
For experienced lawyers, these principles serve as an important reminder that technical legal skill alone rarely produces the best outcomes.
For newer attorneys, they offer a blueprint for building stronger relationships, earning client trust, and becoming more effective advocates.
At its core, criminal defense is about people.
The sooner lawyers recognize that, the better they become—not only in the courtroom, but everywhere else their clients need them.
Key Takeaways
The first meeting often determines the trajectory of a criminal case.
Reducing client anxiety is one of a defense lawyer's most important early responsibilities.
Clients should leave the initial consultation with a concrete action plan.
Productive waiting before charges or discovery arrive can strengthen future negotiations.
Voluntary counseling, rehabilitation, and education frequently become valuable mitigation.
Lawyers should explain legal concepts in plain English rather than relying on legal jargon.
Regular communication builds trust and improves the attorney-client relationship.
The strongest criminal defenses often begin outside the courtroom through preparation, accountability, and personal growth.
Frequently Asked Questions
What should a criminal defense lawyer do immediately after being hired?
The attorney should gather facts, explain the legal process, reduce the client's anxiety, review bond conditions, identify immediate legal issues, and help the client develop a proactive plan for improving both their case and their personal circumstances.
Why is the first client meeting so important?
The initial consultation establishes trust, allows the attorney to gather accurate information, and sets expectations for the representation. It also gives the client direction during what is often one of the most stressful periods of their life.
Should clients begin counseling before their criminal case is resolved?
In many cases, yes.
Voluntarily beginning counseling, treatment, or rehabilitation may benefit the client personally while also demonstrating responsibility and proactive decision-making to prosecutors and judges.
Why do criminal defense lawyers recommend Alcoholics Anonymous or rehabilitation?
Participation in treatment programs can help address underlying substance abuse issues while providing evidence that a client is actively working to prevent future problems.
Why do attorneys spend so much time managing client anxiety?
Clients experiencing criminal charges are often overwhelmed and unfamiliar with the legal system. Helping them understand what comes next allows them to make thoughtful decisions instead of emotional ones.
What if nothing is happening in my case?
Periods of inactivity are common, particularly before charges are filed or discovery is produced. During this time, clients can still strengthen their case by complying with bond conditions, maintaining employment, seeking counseling or treatment when appropriate, and staying in communication with their attorney.
About the Hosts
Andrew Herreth
Andrew Herreth is a Houston-based criminal defense attorney and founder of Herreth Law PLLC. His practice focuses on defending individuals accused of misdemeanor and felony offenses throughout Texas. Through the Andrew & Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense podcast, he interviews leading attorneys, judges, and legal professionals to educate lawyers and elevate the practice of criminal defense.
Andrew Decker
Andrew Decker is a Texas criminal defense attorney whose practice emphasizes practical advocacy, client communication, and early case preparation. Throughout the podcast, he shares real-world strategies for helping clients navigate the criminal justice system while building stronger legal defenses.
Memorable Quotes
"The first job isn't always fighting the case—it's helping the client get through the crisis."
"Clients shouldn't leave the office wondering what to do next."
"The best thing a client can do while waiting is improve their life."
Andrew Herreth 0:05
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Andrew and Andrew on Texas Criminal Defense. My name is Andrew Herreth,
Andrew Decker 0:13
and mine's Andrew Decker.
Andrew Herreth 0:14
mr. Decker, how are you, sir?
Andrew Decker 0:16
Well, it's been a long couple of weeks, but I'm good.
Andrew Herreth 0:18
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we just finished. We we were just talking. We just finished up tax time for a lot of our solo practitioners. It's a very stressful time of the year.
Andrew Decker 0:26
Lordy, Lord,
Andrew Herreth 0:27
man, you know we have we have a we live a pretty good life. You know, I mean, as far as like being able tax
Andrew Decker 0:33
man thinks we live a real good life.
Andrew Herreth 0:35
Exactly, and and and this time of year, you know, a lot of us are really kind of, I don't know, questioning what we're doing here, anyways,
Andrew Decker 0:46
and not esoterically. I mean, like truly, like why are we? Why?
Andrew Herreth 0:49
What is going on here? So, but you know, we just we just got out of a a bar association meeting, listened to another great attorney talk about helping people, right? Much better than us, but a former guest on the show, and and a
Andrew Decker 1:03
friend, personal friend of yours. Yes, yes, very good friend
Andrew Herreth 1:05
of mine, and we're talking about Paul Wingo, anyways, and who's a very good attorney. But you know, it's just hearing other attorneys, not necessarily like give war stories, but just their experience and being honest and truthful about just how exhausting this job is and the toll that it can take and helping others and getting good results really is kind of inspiring, don't you think? The
Andrew Decker 1:28
way you made it sound, no. I mean, but but yes, it yeah, it kind of
Andrew Herreth 1:33
lights a fire. Like, yeah, man, you know, it does take a lot of work, but you know, the effort is worth it.
Andrew Decker 1:39
Yes, yes. Sometimes hearing those stories well reminds me I'm not alone. I'm not the only one who thinks this is hard work.
Andrew Herreth 1:48
Yeah.
Andrew Decker 1:49
Two, it lets me know that sometimes there are good outcomes at the end.
Andrew Herreth 1:54
Right.
Andrew Decker 1:55
And just because you hit a little bit of a blockade, because in his talk he hit several where it would have been easy to just kind of take the well, yeah, that that that'd probably make this family pretty happy,
Andrew Herreth 2:11
and I don't have to work as much, and you know, and I'll still get
Andrew Decker 2:14
I'll still get I'll still get a good good paycheck out of it, right,
Andrew Herreth 2:17
right, right.
Andrew Decker 2:17
Um, but he he truly didn't stop. In fact, he really pushed and pushed and got well incredible, incredible results on on on a civil case, right? Yeah.
Andrew Herreth 2:33
But but still, yes. But still, you know, it does remind me of a lot of our of our cases where it is a struggle, you know, and sometimes we're fighting our clients just as much as we're fighting, you know, the the state, right? But but yes, he he did he he had a lot of struggles in this particular anecdote that he told us. It worked out really well. It kind of reminds me just of like, you know, all of those movies about civil cases, like Aaron Brokovich and oh man, there was one with John Travolta,
Andrew Decker 3:06
and that other one, the civil case, and then
Andrew Herreth 3:09
that other one, and then but anyways, like they, it's all about like there's time and time again where in any of those movies they could have just settled and walked away, you know, instead of like fighting for what's right, you know, and that just kind of seemed what what happened here. He was just on fire to fight for something right, and that also happens
Andrew Decker 3:28
even in criminal defense. And
Andrew Herreth 3:29
that hap we do we deal with that a lot, right?
Andrew Decker 3:33
And you and I talked about at lunch during the CLE or following it. It's amazing how sometimes people will fight tooth and nail for a few $100
Andrew Herreth 3:44
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 3:45
but when you tell them, well, look, you know, they're offering you two years in the pen, and it's the lowest they can go, and they're like, okay, I guess I'll sign it. And it's yeah, there's no fight in it at all.
Andrew Herreth 3:59
Yep. Yeah, I've always been amazed because I've I've done civil work. You've done some civil work.
Andrew Decker 4:03
Very little, but yes, right.
Andrew Herreth 4:04
And and people will fight like hell for what's in their wallet, but they will not. They will just kind of lay down, considering like a decade or two decades in prison. Right, liberty is not is not as important.
Andrew Decker 4:18
Well, part of it sometimes the other end of that liberty question is well could be seven or eight or 10 right or 20 or five to 99 or, um, but all of it starts. All of these cases begin with a phone call, or an email, or someone coming in the office. Right. Nice segue. Thank you.
Andrew Herreth 4:39
We're getting good at this, yeah, yeah, and that so that yeah, so as as Andrew's kind of you know getting to we're we're not it's not really going to be a legal substantive episode, right? Really, just what do you how would you put it? Just a like a like things like best practices to do when something. That are both some of the
Andrew Decker 5:00
realities that happen when you when you meet with with a client. Paul talked about during his talk that his his family that he dealt with they were in the middle of a crisis when that when he got the first phone call and that the emotions were just so thick. This week I had a guy come in. He's accused of a crime of assault, and he is just completely an emotional basket case because I think there might be a claim against the other party of criminal trespass and self defense on our guy's part, so he's just he's he's a basket case. Yeah. So several times, the first thing I had to say was, "Slow down and breathe, and let me catch up to you. Right, because he can't tell the story without just either just blurting it out in in one breath, or without breaking down. You know, we forget that lots of times all we're doing is going breathe.
Andrew Herreth 6:10
Yeah.
Andrew Decker 6:12
All right. So, but that, but it started. It truly started with an email. Hey, I got your name. When can we meet?
Andrew Herreth 6:21
So, so really, when we get these initial, you know, leads or however you want to put it, somebody needing help, you know, first step obviously is getting them on the phone or getting them in your office, and once they've signed on and and you know whatever you know paid your money or whatever, you know. Well, let me ask you, mr. Decker. When when somebody's you've come to an agreement with somebody, you're going to represent them. What's that? You know, past that initial consultation where you're just learning about the case. What's your next step? Like after they become a client, like, what's the first thing you do?
Andrew Decker 7:02
Well, depending on where it is and what it is, you end up having to wait for a case to be filed to actually enter a letter of rep.
Andrew Herreth 7:08
Right,
Andrew Decker 7:09
right. Depending on if it's a simple arrest for, well, currently, you know, I have several of these a THC pin. Okay, it's gonna take a while. It's gonna take a while, and in some of the smaller counties, you can't until it gets indicted. It's hard to even know where it is,
Andrew Herreth 7:28
right? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Andrew Decker 7:30
And so you're you get hired, and you truly are just kind of sitting.
Andrew Herreth 7:35
Yeah, and there's some things you can do beforehand, but you're right. It just kind of spinning your wheels a little bit if you even try to contact a prosecutor. They don't know what you're talking about,
Andrew Decker 7:45
right? Yeah. If if it hasn't been turned into the DA or the county attorney, depending on you know like depending on what it is and where they how they decide to prosecute it where they are, they may truly go. We haven't seen it yet. We don't know.
Andrew Herreth 7:58
Yeah.
Andrew Decker 7:58
Yeah. Like they can go. Well, we saw that they went through the jail. Okay.
Andrew Herreth 8:03
Okay. Yeah, they've been arrested. Yeah. All right. Great. So you have as much info as me. Yeah.
Andrew Decker 8:09
You know, and you can go, you can go get the arrest affidavit. But if it's your your guy says, "Well, I was driving. I was spinning a little bit, and they, you know, saw my vape pen and asked, you know, could they take a look at? And I said, sure. And it said, you know, yeah. I mean, that's
Andrew Herreth 8:29
the that's the gist of H
Andrew Decker 8:30
A P P I day, right? And I don't know. That's just one of the brands I've seen, right? I have no idea if that one is in the case this case or not, right? So happy day, and the and the officer goes, well, this looks like THC. It's a brown, thick, meniscus liquid, and this is a known CBD oil product. And suddenly, you're going to jail. I don't need to see an arrest affidavit. The guys just told me, right? Yeah,
Andrew Herreth 8:52
and I and yeah, I mean, I I generally can understand. I mean, especially in the jurisdictions that we practice in, those officers are when they do their field weight, which is all they really need on the on the PC affidavit. They're weighing everything that that liquid came in, right? Like so, if it's in the if it's in the vape pen, they're weighing the pen with the cartridge, right? In the packaging, it
Andrew Decker 9:11
weighs seven pounds. You're like, yeah,
Andrew Herreth 9:12
yeah, yeah. So you're you're having to bond out, or your clients having to bond out on a third degree or second degree felony, and comes back from the lab, and all of a sudden magically it's a state jail, right? You know, happens all the time. You know that that is, you know, obviously. So
Andrew Decker 9:27
sometimes there's not even a follow up. It's a I've talked to them. I have enough story to know it's really going to just be if they decide to file it or not. We're going to have to sit here for a few months.
Andrew Herreth 9:36
Yeah, and I think during this time, I try to take care of like some of the collateral issues on those cases, like you know, I'll I'll I'll just try to help them out generally. Depending on where they are in their life, I may you know if it's like a young kid never been in in trouble before, I may start asking them like, "What do you want to do with your life? You know, just try to point them in the right direction. If they have license issues, I try to take care of that. That's going to make their life. Easier, and I just try. I personally try to reassure them. Like when this anxiety that you are feeling, you are hiring an attorney to take that off your shoulders, and I hope that I can do that. So let me know what exactly is causing that anxiety, and maybe I can help.
Andrew Decker 10:19
Yeah, that's a great point. So lots of times on like a minor in possession of alcohol or minor in consumption, right? Really a traffic ticket level offense. I'll have a parent call me on that. You and I don't like doing traffic tickets. We don't basically unless it's a some other reason or a drug paraphernalia case, and you'll get this mom who's just, yeah. And you're like, breathe, right? This is like a traffic ticket level offense. And I'll say, you're gonna pay me. You're gonna pay me, and I don't charge a ton, but you're gonna pay me more than this is worth.
Andrew Herreth 10:58
Yeah, than the worst case scenario. Right. Yeah,
Andrew Decker 11:01
because I will go in and I have no emotional connection to the case. Right. So, and I'll say you're talking to me as the mom, almost in tears, or dad just almost hyperventilating that his baby girl is been charged with alcohol and possession. Yeah, you know, and you want and for, and I say, look, part of the reason you hire me is that I can go in and I'm not emotionally connected, and I can say, I can tell you do these three things and send you on your way, and you save you save the money. You can hire me. I'll go do. I'll have you do these three things. I'll go, but I'm not emotionally connected to it. I can have just some. I'm moving paper.
Andrew Herreth 11:50
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 11:51
I'm going and talking to a prosecutor I probably know, versus somebody who you see as scary, intimidating, and they might be scary and intimidating, generally. But again, relieving some of that anxiety, saying, "Breathe, let me take some of that fear away from you. Telling a guy the other day that that I just mentioned, I'm 90-7% sure. Worst case scenario, you're not gonna go to jail on a simple assault when you're in your 50s.
Andrew Herreth 12:28
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 12:28
not a simple assault, a class A assault.
Andrew Herreth 12:30
Right, right,
Andrew Decker 12:31
right. You're gonna get a probation if you're found guilty at trial.
Andrew Herreth 12:34
Yeah, yeah. I in that that's I'm the same way. I just actually got off the phone with somebody who who needs some help done really you know has no history, and and they're terrified about prison. And I have to tell them, well, you know this is a class A misdemeanor. There is no prison. First off, so you don't you can stop worrying about that, and you have no history. I mean, I can't promise you that you know that they are not going to see the inside of a jail, so it's it's in the range of punishment. It is a possibility, however, you know, I don't think it is probable, and I'm certainly going to do everything I can to prevent that.
Andrew Decker 13:12
Right.
Andrew Herreth 13:12
So you know, more practically speaking, you know, I we were talking about this earlier too. Like I got hired on a felony DWI. It's a DWI third, and I typically, you know, it's in my contract. You have to abide by all court orders, which means bond conditions. And I and I go over that with them. I I try to provide like in a situation like that, whether the state can prove a third or not, I'm trying to make sure my clients never find them themselves in this position. So if I can get them on the, you know, hey, for the for the time being, stop drinking. We need to show a prosecutor is not going to be an issue. And if in the future we get the discovery and they can win, or there's no legal reason why all their evidence can't go in. You know, we need to be putting ourselves in the with the showing ourselves in the best possible light, and and I do that for a reason. One, it makes my job a lot easier, right? Two, it's it helps my client in the long run. Like anything that helps a criminal case is typically going to help them in their personal lives, and I, for whatever reason, it's
Andrew Decker 14:24
not going to hurt their personal life,
Andrew Herreth 14:25
right? And and ultimately, it's up to them if they want to listen to me or not. For whatever reason, you know, i i have I have represented clients that make my job much harder, like getting arrested after you facing a third degree felony, DWI or possession of a controlled substance, then you know continuing to drink or use a substance and picking up more charges while you're on bond
Andrew Decker 14:54
or testing dirty for SU dirty,
Andrew Herreth 14:55
and this is the intercept we've had a number of pod. Talk about the effect of addiction and mental health and the criminal justice system, and really, you know, in dealing with that, I mean, I when that happens, I can recognize, okay, this person has a serious problem that needs to be addressed, and in so doing, it also helps our our case in negotiation. But you know, it's just it can be really frustrating. So, do you have that like, do you have that conversation kind of like I do, where you're like, "Hey, let's go over your bond conditions. You know, this. Let's go over some things. Like, tell me about your life. You know what I mean? Like, how do you?
Andrew Decker 15:37
Sure. I mean, it's one of the things I think you have to ask. You know, tell me about. well, can you stay clean? Any time I start talking about somebody who has a drug or alcohol charge, and we're looking at probation, I ask them. I said, "Look, I can answer this question for you. It sounds simple. You got to be clean starting Tuesday. But when was the last time you went more than 70-two hours without using drugs or alcohol,
Andrew Herreth 16:04
yeah,
Andrew Decker 16:05
right. And I've had guys in you know 20-eight years old say I haven't gone that long since I was 13 when I started smoking pot.
Andrew Herreth 16:13
Exactly
Andrew Decker 16:14
right. Okay, well then either we need to go to rehab or we need to think of something else. Right, because he's not going to suddenly be clean tomorrow.
Andrew Herreth 16:24
And speaking of rehab, you've you've actually been really successful. I know, like in a particularly challenging county, you had a really serious case that ended up. I can't remember if it was reduced or got dismissed simply because you had a client in the pretrial phase check themselves into inpatient rehab, successfully complete whatever they had to do there at that program, and and showed sustained sobriety. Correct. Tell us about that, because I know I'm I am I am on the fence. I have been on the fence in the past about sending a client to a lockdown facility for rehabilitation during pretrial. Because I'm worried, like, okay, is this judge going to revoke their bond because they're not showing up to court because they're in inpatient rehab, or you know what I mean? And I,
Andrew Decker 17:09
so the few times that I've actually sent them away and knew that they were going to missing a court date, and I've sent several, I've you know not not outpatient intensive outpatient send them to rehab.
Andrew Herreth 17:22
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 17:23
I've done it several times. Now, let's back up a little bit. You're gonna. You were talking about somebody who's got some privilege to be able to do this.
Andrew Herreth 17:33
Yes, they
Andrew Decker 17:34
can take off of work if they need to. They have insurance that'll cover it, or they, or somebody can pay for it out of pocket.
Andrew Herreth 17:40
Right.
Andrew Decker 17:41
So this is not an answer that's always available, but when it's been available, and we've sent someone, I've sent someone to rehab and said this is the only chance you have. I have been amazed when a judge, you know, there's a court date, and I I email the coordinator and say, hey, they're in rehab. This is where they are. Here's a letter saying that they're in rehab as of, you know, they started here, and they're in, you know, and this is a few days prior to the court date. We're asking for them to be excused. I've had a few judges say, the first Monday after they're released, I want to see them in this courtroom. Yeah, I've had a few say I need to see them. I had one of them say within 40-eight hours of release, right? Or second business day, something like. But I mean, it was like basically they got out of out of rehab down near Kerrville. Next day came here. The next morning we were in in a courtroom before docket because it was a civil date because it was a general jurisdiction court. And I said, Judge, I just want you to see that so and so was here. And they said your next court date, and and they you know had to bring the criminal coordinator in because that's not who was in the room. Your next court date is going to be in 30 days. Just want you to know, and I said, and I looked at him. I said, 25 days from now, you're taking another UA. They were clean. They were clean. They were clean. Three DWIs in 90 days didn't go to jail.
Andrew Herreth 19:17
Wow. Yeah,
Andrew Decker 19:19
but he did all the work. She same thing with another one that was a female. They did all the work.
Andrew Herreth 19:26
Yeah, and you kind of you have to have a client who's willing to make that life change. And and for a lot of people, being popped for a felony DOUI is sufficient,
Andrew Decker 19:35
right, to
Andrew Herreth 19:35
make that life change.
Andrew Decker 19:36
Right.
Andrew Herreth 19:36
For others, it's not, unfortunately.
Andrew Decker 19:40
Sure, we know guys that have five and six DWIs. Yeah,
Andrew Herreth 19:43
but I but I like that it's it's you know when they were arrested and maybe released from jail. I I don't know if people like truly think when they're hiring an attorney, they're hiring almost like a a
Andrew Decker 19:58
life a life coach. You
Andrew Herreth 20:00
know, like like this this process can make you overall a better person if you abide by the advice that you're paying for,
Andrew Decker 20:09
right? Or or that you're you're appointed on. Yeah, sure, right, right. Former Marine. It has taken me months to convince that Veterans Court's the right option, right?
Andrew Herreth 20:24
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 20:25
but I looked at him in my office and I said, "If you don't do this, you're going to be a dead man in 10 years.
Andrew Herreth 20:31
Yeah. Well, yeah. Regardless of the if the state can prove their case, just your physical health will deteriorate. You are
Andrew Decker 20:38
not healthy.
Andrew Herreth 20:39
Yeah. So, so you know, we. I'm still. I'm not going to mention this attorney by name because we're still hoping he comes on the on the show at some point to discuss this. But this attorney has like a checklist, right, to give all of his clients. Like, I want you to be doing why
Andrew Decker 20:54
I want him on the show.
Andrew Herreth 20:54
This, this, this. I do too. And he's willing. We just need to do. I know. I want this. We
Andrew Decker 20:59
haven't had the time yet.
Andrew Herreth 21:01
We haven't had the time. We need. It's a scheduling issue, but but this will happen, and I am so intrigued by that because it's just such an easy idea. I give all my clients a folder, right, to just keep all their court paperwork in. You know, most of our clients, if they're young, they don't do paper, so they'll come in with like everything's crumpled up in their
Andrew Decker 21:23
in their
Andrew Herreth 21:24
pocket. So I give them that, but how much easier would it be just to like staple that on the inside of the folder with a checklist of like my attorney needs me to do this, this, and this by this day, you know, all that kind of. And I, it's so simple. The genius is in its simplicity, right? Just something you can have your office staff print out and have them mark off what you you know like it doesn't add any extra work to you. It can really help in negotiation with the state.
Andrew Decker 21:55
Sure, sure. Lots of this is how to negotiate, but then so how. how often, right? Do you have the new client come in, and they're trying to claim innocence?
Andrew Herreth 22:16
I mean, yeah,
Andrew Decker 22:17
right. And sometimes you kind of go with what you've told me, let's run with that and go. But sometimes, even at the consultation, you you're doing everything you can not to go. That's that's bullshit.
Andrew Herreth 22:31
I I have to repeat the legal definition of possession a lot. I
Andrew Decker 22:37
talk about it. I talk about in the terms of salt and pepper.
Andrew Herreth 22:40
Explain that.
Andrew Decker 22:41
Okay, so have have I not talked about this? I'm
Andrew Herreth 22:43
sure you have, but I don't know if we've done it on the show.
Andrew Decker 22:45
Okay, all right. So
Andrew Herreth 22:47
and I'm not I'm blanking right now on this particular. So
Andrew Decker 22:50
what I say is, you know, people go, well, I man, it wasn't mine. You know, I what, and I'll say, okay, so let's just back up. Let's make it that we're sitting in your kitchen or my kitchen. Which one do you want to do? We'll do my kitchen.
Andrew Herreth 23:02
Yeah,
Andrew Decker 23:03
you and I are sitting at my kitchen table,
Andrew Herreth 23:05
right?
Andrew Decker 23:05
You you've been in my house, you know they that right. And there's a salt and pepper on the table,
Andrew Herreth 23:11
right? We're both
Andrew Decker 23:12
eating. We're both eating a steak because if you were at my house, that's probably what we'd be having.
Andrew Herreth 23:15
Damn right,
Andrew Decker 23:16
exactly. And the cops walk in. Who's in possession of the salt and pepper, Mister Herreth?
Andrew Herreth 23:25
I know the answer to this.
Andrew Decker 23:27
Right. The answer is both of us.
Andrew Herreth 23:29
Right. I would be like, "Hey, man, it's his house. Sure, we're eating dinner. But, but right. I mean, but that's my argument.
Andrew Decker 23:38
Right.
Andrew Herreth 23:39
I I I will default to like what a lot of my clients default to, like it wasn't mine, it wasn't mine,
Andrew Decker 23:45
right? And so I'll say, well, because we could both reach it, we're both sitting at the table. It could be either one of ours,
Andrew Herreth 23:52
right?
Andrew Decker 23:52
And it could be both of ours at the same time, right? That's the part where they kind of go close
Andrew Herreth 23:59
their mind, yeah, right.
Andrew Decker 24:00
You know, and so sometimes I'll be like, "Well, you know, go to the Dairy Queen, right? The salt and pepper's there. Whose is it? You know, it's obviously belong to Dairy Queen, but we're in possession of it because we're using it. If the salt and pepper's a little closer to you than to me, might more more likely be in your possession than my possession. If it's in my house, I'm always in possession of it,
Andrew Herreth 24:21
right?
Andrew Decker 24:22
But you cannot be also,
Andrew Herreth 24:24
yeah,
Andrew Decker 24:25
right. And so sometimes, you know, those things. I feel like I'm always giving the salt and pepper. And someday I'll talk. Well, you know,
Andrew Herreth 24:31
I have I. But back to the the original, like you know, hey, in a an individual claiming innocence. I mean, I you know think about it like in the context of assault cases, where they're like, it was a fight. Like I did not assault them any more than they assaulted me, right? And then you have like kind of a mutual combat issue. I was hired on a case, not that that matters, but I I was retained on a case where. You know, it was Andy gets
Andrew Decker 25:01
hired on few enough cases. He actually has to mention that every time.
Andrew Herreth 25:04
I'm just so successful. Where they, I think there's initial aggressor issues. Meaning, I think my client has very well has a self defense claim.
Andrew Decker 25:17
Right.
Andrew Herreth 25:18
The when she was arrested, the officers did not take any measure to look at any kind of surveillance video when it's obvious there were surveillance cameras. We got a hold of that surveillance video, and I think then looking at comparing the surveillance video to like the the statements of the witnesses, the so-called victim or complainant, I think she's invite. I think she's committing a couple different crimes there. Filing a false police report. I think she's actually could be charged with assault simply because the surveillance video. So she's making a statement to the officers that say one thing, and then in the surveillance video, it is very obviously something else, and my client's charged with like pretty serious charges, you know. Yeah, and she comes in, she's like, "I did not do this, and you know, of course, like we're cynical defense attorneys. We're like, "Okay, I under we're going to make sure we we get your side of the story out there, but you know, in the back of my head, I'm like, "All right, lady, sure. I saw that surveillance video, and it like broke my heart that she's having to go through this situation. Yeah, and it, and and I, and then I, you know, I felt like a jerk because I didn't initially like say like how. I mean, it's pretty outrageous, actually. But but yeah, I mean, we we have those clients claiming innocence. It still doesn't change how I like what I ask my clients to do. Right in that situation, it's an assault case. I still want her to take an anger management class or a dispute resolutions class, and not and because like I don't think we're ever going to plead guilty at all. We're never going to do anything like deferred adjudication, pretrial diversion. No thanks. We'll go to trial. We might
Andrew Decker 27:09
need to learn that technique of take 10 seconds and walk away.
Andrew Herreth 27:13
Exactly. I think everybody could use like that's that's one of the things. Like regardless of your circumstance, it doesn't hurt anybody, and it can only help
Andrew Decker 27:22
us. So, okay, so it's not often I talk about church. It Sunday morning in church during the children's sermon, one of the kids they were talking about what made what makes you angry, and the the the the pastor was talking to the kids, and he says, "Well, was it the banana I ate that made me say ugly things? Or, you know, this. He goes, "Maybe it was the spicy jalapeno jelly. He goes, "You know, because I made my it was so hot in my tummy, and everybody kind of laughed. But then this one kid goes, raises his hand, and the pastor says, "Yes. And this little kid goes, "If you want to say something mean, run away. huh? Amen, brother. From the mouth of babes, right? From
Andrew Herreth 28:05
the mouth of babes. That's true.
Andrew Decker 28:06
Management dispute resolution. At some point, being, do you want to get your way or do you want to be right?
Andrew Herreth 28:15
Yeah, yeah, and you know, swallowing the pride a little bit, right? Right.
Andrew Decker 28:20
Walk away. Just be like, this is not. This argument's not worth it.
Andrew Herreth 28:23
Which you know, to be clear, my client did try to do. She was, she was stopped from doing so.
Andrew Decker 28:28
Okay, so
Andrew Herreth 28:30
yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a it's it is a crazy case. But let's wrap it up because you know I know this is like not really a legally substantive episode. It's just kind of you know a primer like get you thinking. How can you help your clients prepare for this case? How can they help you by doing some things? Don't be afraid to send your clients to inpatient rehab if that's something that they need. And if
Andrew Decker 28:53
they can't afford it, tell them to start going to AA and sign into that sheet five days a week. Oh
Andrew Herreth 28:58
my gosh, I had a client who was like, "I'll go to AA and get a sign-in sheet, but but only only after you give me the template for the sign-in sheet. And I'm like, dude, go buy a notebook and just
Andrew Decker 29:09
I tell them I was like, it can be any piece of paper. I don't care.
Andrew Herreth 29:12
It doesn't matter. Get a napkin. Like the AA chairs, like they deal with this all the time. They know exactly what information needs to be on there.
Andrew Decker 29:18
Right.
Andrew Herreth 29:19
Okay. But anyways, he's going, which is good.
Andrew Decker 29:22
Any reason not to admit I have a problem?
Andrew Herreth 29:24
Yeah, exactly.
Andrew Decker 29:27
Anyway,
Andrew Herreth 29:28
so maybe this would be a great episode, Ender, to to just request that you guys send us your best tips on how you you know how you handle some of these clients when they come in initially into your office? Yeah, we'll we'll mention them on the next show.
Andrew Decker 29:46
Well, and we'll get you on the show with something that you that you know that we don't.
Andrew Herreth 29:50
Even if you don't want to be on the show, send it to us. Yeah, I mean either way, we always love to have to have guests on our show.
Andrew Decker 29:56
Yeah. Speaking of a former guest, our our former guest Jessica.
Andrew Herreth 30:00
Yeah, is
Andrew Decker 30:01
being celebrated as a TCDLA rising star at Rusty Duncan this summer. I
Andrew Herreth 30:10
did not know they did that.
Andrew Decker 30:11
Yeah, yeah. I mean,
Andrew Herreth 30:13
she's more than a rising star. She's been around for a minute. You know, like doing great things for years, about time. TCDLA,
Andrew Decker 30:19
right, right. She's getting an award. Congrats,
Andrew Herreth 30:21
Jessica! It's well earned.
Andrew Decker 30:22
Yep, we love her. All right, Andy.
Andrew Herreth 30:26
For mr. Decker, I'm Andrew Herreth,
Andrew Decker 30:28
and for mr. Herreth, I'm Andrew Decker. You all be good.